$200M ARR B2B SAAS MARKETING STRATEGY | Margus Veeber, Head of Web @ Pipedrive | #9

00:00:00: Welcome to a new episode of the Masters of Search Talks.

00:00:03: I'm super happy to introduce today's guest, which is Margot Weber, who is head of web at Pet Drive, one of Europe's most successful SARS unicorns competing with the likes of HubSpot or Salesforce.

00:00:17: Pipedrive has had great success with SEO over the last years, driving more than half a million monthly organic visitors and thousands of sign-ups.

00:00:25: What makes Margot's particularly interesting is his unique perspective on how web strategy and conversion optimization intersect with the changing search landscape.

00:00:36: His work on optimizing Pipedrive's multilingual website for conversion sits right at the intersection of where traffic meets business results.

00:00:45: So Margot's First of all, thanks so much for being here.

00:00:47: Can you give a quick intro about your role at Pipedrive and what your day-to-day looks like?

00:00:53: Sure.

00:00:54: Thanks, Niklas, for having me.

00:00:55: I hope I can provide some value to your audience shortly about me.

00:00:58: My name is Margot, head of Web at Pipedrive.

00:01:00: I have been in Pipedrive almost for five years already.

00:01:03: And in simple terms, I lead our global web strategy and operations, making sure our website just doesn't bring the traffic, but actually it converts that traffic into signups and revenue.

00:01:13: And in general, just supporting the whole business with web related needs, requesting the strategic partner across the company.

00:01:20: Because at the end of the day, the website for us is a critical business asset.

00:01:23: So we want to make sure that everybody are happy, everybody can get their part done on the website.

00:01:27: And that's where we come in, helping them with everything.

00:01:31: And on day to the basis, there's really so many different things happening.

00:01:35: At the end, I want to make sure that my team is in a good place.

00:01:38: They can deliver their things.

00:01:40: We are constantly focusing on the growth, conversions, you know, we have a vision for the web, we are working on systems to make things more scalable, more efficient, we're working on a tooling, you know, seeing what's next for us, you know, what's the next tooling to bring us into the future.

00:01:55: And yeah, so there's so many things happening on every day basis, every day is different.

00:01:58: And I think that makes it really exciting because web is really sits in that intersection where like you work with marketing teams, SEO, paid media, product, sales, legal.

00:02:09: whatever team basically you can imagine we're going to work with them.

00:02:12: and that's the most excited part I would say.

00:02:15: Nice, you already dropped a few keywords and I'd like to dive into the first one here a little bit deeper.

00:02:20: So you describe yourself, I think I read it on your LinkedIn profile as leading web strategy and operations, focusing on two things.

00:02:29: improving conversion at scale and positioning the team, the web team as a strategic partner across the company.

00:02:36: I found this really interesting and I think it tells a lot about your vision of how you work together with other teams.

00:02:45: Can you break this down for us a little bit?

00:02:48: Yeah, sure.

00:02:49: So improving conversions at scale.

00:02:51: This is something basically for us where we're really trying to figure out all of the ways that we can improve the conversions.

00:02:59: It can be A-B testing on the key pages because then the conversion for us is not just the home page, not just the pricing page.

00:03:05: There are a bunch of different key pages.

00:03:07: What kind of traffic we're getting?

00:03:08: What kind of pages are we using for those traffic?

00:03:11: How we are optimizing those pages for that specific traffic?

00:03:15: So there's all of that part.

00:03:16: But then you have this part that you have different languages.

00:03:19: You want to make sure that you can test there.

00:03:21: You can have multiple types of different tests.

00:03:23: So there's a lot of different ways to scale it.

00:03:25: Also, you can work with SEO team, paid media team, help them to test different things and support them to create that win-win situations.

00:03:34: So that's the improving convergence at the scale.

00:03:36: at the end.

00:03:37: You just work on all of the different levers that you can do to improve the conversions and at the end help the customers have a better journey on the website.

00:03:45: And as a team side, as a strategic partner, web team often might be like an executional part, but at the end it's really being there for a partner, advising them, helping them to do some things, helping them to focus on their core strengths and then pulling things off from the website perspective.

00:04:04: So there's a lot of happening in that side and I think it's really valuable to have that kind of web expertise and helping people to really... Get their visibility into the website, whatever needed.

00:04:16: Can you share a project either that you're currently working on or that you have recently worked on?

00:04:23: Of course, nothing that the colleagues at HubSpot and Salesforce shouldn't hear, but just for the audience to get a little bit of a more operational understanding of how this collaboration looks like, where you work together with product or with SEO or with paid media.

00:04:42: Yeah, we're SEO like we work together a lot like I feel we're really good partners together And we're always trying to you know, whatever they need to make happen on the website in a new SEO optimized pages.

00:04:52: We are gonna help them to publish those things.

00:04:54: They need to optimize some pages.

00:04:55: We are gonna help those things and then where the strategic part comes in is that we're gonna really work together and Advising them to see like hey, maybe we should approach some things differently.

00:05:04: You know, let's go back one month, you know Let's see how something that we did for them.

00:05:08: How is that working?

00:05:09: So it's always kind of working together, instead of just delivering stuff that different teams can request from us.

00:05:15: But it's always seeing and going back and learning and then trying to improve everything.

00:05:20: So with SOD, we really work together on daily basis.

00:05:24: But of course, product marketing, sales, for them, website is also a key place to be.

00:05:32: So figuring out with them, like how they can leverage in the most efficient way.

00:05:37: So I could bring a lot of examples, but the list is going to be really long.

00:05:41: Yeah, very cool.

00:05:42: Thanks so much for sharing this already.

00:05:44: In your interest statement, you also mentioned tooling.

00:05:48: So the systems you're working with, the tools that power the WebStrategy and Pipedrive.

00:05:54: And I noticed that you're quite passionate about no code solutions and headless CMS.

00:06:01: Can you share with us what the setup of the website and everything that you work with as a web team, how this looks like?

00:06:10: Yeah, sure.

00:06:11: Personally, I'm just a huge fan of no-code and also low-code solutions because I can see that it's just enabling people who maybe doesn't have a coding skills, but it helps them to just do so much.

00:06:21: I remember the first time when I started using web platforms that were no-code-based and suddenly We just managed to do so many things that before maybe needed coding and needed engineers.

00:06:32: So personally just huge fan.

00:06:34: But from Viper perspective, we're definitely not like too mature yet.

00:06:37: We have no code because at the end we're still a bigger enterprise.

00:06:40: So, you know, we need to really be careful how and what we're using.

00:06:44: But on constant week by week basis basically, figuring out what's the, what are the next steps?

00:06:48: How can we start plugging in no code?

00:06:50: Because for a web we use headless CMS where we still like we need engineers to build that kind of thing.

00:06:55: But the headless CMS allows us to really build most of the stuff without needing any engineer support and temp support.

00:07:02: So that's really good.

00:07:03: Developers have built a really good solution for us.

00:07:06: But how we are starting to use NoCo is more that we are connecting CMS, for example, with AirTable.

00:07:13: Ideal NoCo tool, really, really passionate about that one.

00:07:16: And then starting leveraging NoCo solutions inside of AirTable.

00:07:20: And when we have a connection with CMS, we can use AI inside of AirTable.

00:07:23: We can use automations inside of AirTable.

00:07:26: and seeing how we can scale more, we can enable SOD also to do more stuff, even without going to the CMS and just leveraging NoCo tools like Airtable.

00:07:35: So that's the one way we are, and there are other tools that we are exploring and using, but just seeing where can we slowly step by step starting to integrate different NoCo tools.

00:07:45: And there's always like part of me that exploring different kind of web platforms, you know, we know Webflow Framer.

00:07:52: which in last years they are getting more enterprise ready.

00:07:55: A couple of years ago I would say they weren't that enterprise ready yet.

00:07:58: Today, that kind of fee players are already really good for enterprises.

00:08:01: So, keeping my eye on those things and kind of balancing out, like, does it make sense to migrate something?

00:08:07: Maybe it doesn't yet.

00:08:08: Can we do it in some different ways?

00:08:11: And the automation is definitely something where I'm quite bullish and especially... automating small things for the team.

00:08:18: Those small tasks that every day take a couple of minutes, maybe five minutes here and there every day, and things that are easy to forget.

00:08:24: Using different no-code automation tools like, you know, is it safe to make and maintain whatever at the end, but just leveraging that kind of things to really automate small things, the team will start trusting that kind of tools and build more confidence.

00:08:39: So right now, setup is kind of like this.

00:08:40: And of course, for AP testing, we have a separate AP testing tool where we can also do some things without code.

00:08:48: Some things might need coding also, but exploring with different tools and constantly trying to plug in new tools, test it out at least in smaller scale and then seeing where can we really take it.

00:08:59: Very cool.

00:09:00: So just for me to understand this correctly, is Airtable then your CMS, so to say?

00:09:06: So is the content of the pages hosted in Airtable or do you use another CMS that is then connected to your headless environment?

00:09:14: So we have a headless CMS which is like the main CMS but from there we are pulling information into the Airtable.

00:09:20: so Airtable can be the place where we can control the content if needed.

00:09:25: but we can always do it in CMS.

00:09:26: but I just see that you know Airtable can enable quite many cool things.

00:09:31: what maybe CMS couldn't do it.

00:09:32: so but yeah CMS is still sitting separately in that sense.

00:09:36: And what are you using as a headless CMS?

00:09:39: It's a graph CMS.

00:09:40: Okay.

00:09:41: And would you recommend it to other folks that are working like with websites at the scale of pipe drive?

00:09:47: I think it can be really good.

00:09:48: Like it's really customizable and flexible in that sense.

00:09:51: But of course, there are quite many different headless CMS.

00:09:54: There's also many no code web platforms.

00:09:57: So.

00:09:58: I think it really matters like what's your setup?

00:10:01: you know what's your needs for us when we have twenty three languages on the website you know we need setup that really enables us to scale that kind of things.

00:10:09: so yeah it works for us right now but of course future can bring different different solutions.

00:10:14: let's

00:10:14: see.

00:10:15: Okay, very cool.

00:10:16: We've already talked about the scale of hype drive and the scale of the web operation.

00:10:20: and I think another very interesting point is Your international presence.

00:10:25: so paper has a strong international presence with sites in Spain Portugal France Germany many other markets obviously also English website where you get a lot of traffic from the US UK.

00:10:39: So how do you handle conversion optimization or web strategy?

00:10:42: across these different markets and languages.

00:10:45: Are there any differences?

00:10:46: Anything you can share about that?

00:10:49: That's a really good question.

00:10:50: So one thing that has been part of Pipetrile since the beginning of Pipetrile is that we want to be local.

00:10:56: We want to make sure that we are available for so many different countries.

00:11:00: So our app is, I think it's too many free languages, numbers getting quite big already.

00:11:04: So it's difficult to keep track.

00:11:05: But we want to make sure that the app is in that language and therefore also the website is in that language.

00:11:10: So if local markets, they want to use the Pipetrile, they can do it in their own language which I think is a big difference between many other companies which you know.

00:11:19: sometimes maybe it's just English or maybe just key languages but yeah we really try to make sure that we are there.

00:11:24: so that's always the base thing.

00:11:25: we want to make sure that we are localized translated to those languages.

00:11:29: people can use it in their own native language.

00:11:31: of course the scalability question is the big topic at the end.

00:11:34: you know how can we balance the scalability and local needs and you know optimize the conversions.

00:11:42: how we are approaching it right now is that we are focusing on key languages, where we can get the most traffic also, where we can also test more.

00:11:49: There we are exploring different things, how to optimize it for a local market, if it makes sense.

00:11:55: Because often times many things might not make sense, but if you do it, you have a huge future.

00:11:59: because for me the key thing is always to consider the future because if you translate something, if your custom is something for a local market and later you need to change something across the website.

00:12:09: There's a huge future cost that you need to go and edit those things separately.

00:12:14: So that's always the balance.

00:12:15: But what we are doing with the key markets and starting to do way more also in the future, right now, is that just testing smaller tests in those key languages, you know, homepage for German, for example, testing out some small things, nothing massive at the end, because I think in general, we're already doing quite a good job, you know, they're translated well, local people are translating them, but just trying to see if there are those small market specific things that we should really tap into.

00:12:44: that and we have some.

00:12:45: we have seen some really good success with like really some small tests.

00:12:49: you just add something that some market really requires or it's really important for German market for example and you add that thing and the conversion can just increase like a lot in that sense.

00:13:01: so but it's always a balance and a key thing for me is always to consider that it needs to stay scalable it.

00:13:08: it cannot cause a huge future future cost for us because otherwise yes we could you know optimize something and make it super localized.

00:13:16: but if in six months this creates like five times more work for us that that's going to be a problem.

00:13:21: so always trying to look look ahead a little bit you know what's the benefit like.

00:13:25: is this local optimization causing us or bringing us enough benefit you know to to take that future cost future effort that it's going to bring?

00:13:36: Let's tap into that one a little more because I think it's super interesting.

00:13:40: The first follow-up question I have is, can you share what, for example, the small thing for the German market was?

00:13:47: So can I think about it like in the US market, you use a G-II or a Kaptera review badge and then in the German market, you use like OMR reviews?

00:13:58: Is it something like that or is it something different?

00:14:01: Yeah, like that kind of things are definitely working like you know.

00:14:04: local countries they want to see.

00:14:06: you know local customer logos for example local review sites and so forth.

00:14:11: But for German market for example, this was just testing if bringing bringing GDPR information more visible for the home page if it's gonna bring good results because we know Germans they love the security and it makes total sense.

00:14:26: So and we we decided in a super simple way pull it off in one day basically check the results and I'm not going to say the exact exact exact number but uh but increase for conversion from that small test that was that was a huge one.

00:14:40: like.

00:14:40: that's my favorite example still and this came directly from like customer feedback customer was saying like you know that's really important for them and they didn't maybe get that information that fast.

00:14:50: we made it more visible and it works really well.

00:14:53: so that kind of thing said.

00:14:54: that's why I'm really big believer in that small test.

00:14:56: doesn't need to be a huge revamp of German homepage or Portuguese homepage.

00:15:02: Sometimes just adding those small things that are really relevant to those markets, those can be the biggest winners.

00:15:08: Wow, that's a very cool example.

00:15:10: I immediately feel the connection to what you said earlier about the teams really working closely together.

00:15:19: So I can imagine that the support team or customer success team or whoever quickly shared the information.

00:15:25: Can you share with us the time span from Basically the inside being discovered.

00:15:31: So basically the customer request or customer feedback until The test was live and then the results coming in.

00:15:37: So if I understood correctly, the test was only running twenty four hours or

00:15:44: I don't remember exactly how long that test was running probably a couple of weeks or so because I think it always based on you know the traffic how much the traffic that certain language or page is getting.

00:15:55: then you want to make sure that you can trust the results, so you want to get to the statistical significance.

00:16:00: But yeah, the time period, it can really vary.

00:16:03: in that sense, because we have a huge backlog of ideas.

00:16:06: We have a constant process with sales team customers' success to get that kind of feedback.

00:16:11: We know the customer problems that they have on the website, in the product, in the onboarding flows, in the signup flows, so it's really just Realizing figuring out what's the next things that we're going to do and right now we're putting a lot of effort there and trying to scale that part.

00:16:27: And then just to make sure the customer are customers are getting the information that they need from the website.

00:16:33: I but I already feel like this is such a big nugget because I still talk to a lot of people and I feel generally smart people that.

00:16:42: tend to look more at what their competitors are doing in terms of ideas for testing backlog etc.

00:16:49: then to just look at their own customers support tickets customer success teams right do you have the same impression?

00:16:55: because i think what you're doing with rooting your optimization ideas so deeply in your customers needs is like this is it should be the standard but i think it's not yet across the board.

00:17:10: Yeah, that's that's very very typical problem.

00:17:12: hands up.

00:17:12: I have also done that mistake But I'm not big fan of it because looking competitors, you know, there might be cooler design Whatever doesn't mean it's converting better.

00:17:21: It doesn't mean that it's solving customer problems.

00:17:23: And we have done that kind of test where like you see if maybe not even competitors some other sauce website Something looks really good design wise you try to do it.

00:17:32: It's not the winning one.

00:17:34: So not gonna make that mistake anymore.

00:17:36: and what's at the end?

00:17:37: what's really working is that we know the exact customer problems.

00:17:40: we're trying to find solution.

00:17:41: how can we use website to solve those problems and those ones most often are the winning ones.

00:17:48: chance to chance for a winning test is way higher.

00:17:51: instead of just looking competitors because I think you don't know the data behind their website how well something is converting for them.

00:17:58: and yeah like website is way more than just looking it visually.

00:18:02: you know Many things might look good visually, but it doesn't mean it's actually solving the problems.

00:18:06: It's actually converting.

00:18:08: But it's really, really typical mistake.

00:18:10: And it's part of the AP testing that you get a lot of different opinions.

00:18:13: We should test this, we should test that.

00:18:16: If there's a customer problem that it's helping to solve, sure, let's do it.

00:18:20: Let's get some data behind it.

00:18:22: Otherwise, if it's not solving any customer problem, it's just nice design.

00:18:25: Then prefer not to do that.

00:18:29: Exactly, my experience also, we still work with this client, but we once had to do AB tests for page search landing pages, actually.

00:18:40: And we had landing pages that we constantly optimized in iterative tests.

00:18:46: And they were, in my opinion, generally working well.

00:18:50: But then someone from the team said, hey, you know, I feel they look really ugly.

00:18:55: I want to go in a different direction design-wise.

00:18:58: Obviously, since we are not blocking this, but we felt like, OK, let's do it.

00:19:03: Let's test it.

00:19:05: We spent and it was a huge effort because.

00:19:08: Design is not something very objective.

00:19:11: So you have a lot of opinions, etc.

00:19:13: And we did some feedback rounds.

00:19:15: And then in the end, actually, the results were very disappointing.

00:19:18: And then we basically, we took this new environment.

00:19:20: So we switched from a landing page tool to Webflow.

00:19:23: And then in Webflow, we were basically rebuilding the landing pages we had in this old tool, which was canceled by then.

00:19:29: And I think like the story tells so much in a nutshell about the thing you were also experiencing at Pipetrave.

00:19:36: really cool to see how you guys are approaching this.

00:19:41: So can you share, because we've talked about A.B.

00:19:44: testing already, and I still see a lot of people, like from the online marketing, from the search marketing and conversion optimization space, mourning the loss of Google Optimize, which was, I feel, generally a good working tool, but I guess that you have a pretty sophisticated text there.

00:20:06: Can you share what you're using for doing A.B.

00:20:08: tests at PyPrize?

00:20:11: We are using a couple of different tools for the website.

00:20:13: Mainly we use Optimize.ly right now.

00:20:15: We have also different tools inside of the sign-up flow and product.

00:20:18: So we're trying to test everywhere and if needed, we can connect them.

00:20:21: But on the website right now, it's Optimize.ly.

00:20:24: Cool.

00:20:25: And can you recommend it for people that are also working at sites of the scale of PyPrize?

00:20:31: It works for us.

00:20:32: in that sense, you know, there are also different tools out there, but right now I feel This year is probably gonna be really critical in that sense to see like how all of the tools are catching up with AI how they're really Implementing it.

00:20:43: so it's constantly like you know keeping your eyes open seeing what what what does the best work for you?

00:20:48: But right now it helps us to test quite a lot and yeah, no big issues.

00:20:52: in that sense

00:20:54: Very interesting.

00:20:55: So obviously the name of this interview series is masses of search and I want to look a little bit closer at the search performance of Pipe Drive, because obviously, as I also said in the intro, you guys have done an amazing job at building a search omnipresence.

00:21:13: So between organic search, but also paid search, a lot of landing pages, but also a lot of content, et cetera.

00:21:20: So I think we're talking hundreds of thousands of monthly organic visitors here, basically globally, which is like massive.

00:21:29: From your web strategy perspective, how do you ensure that this massive amount of traffic actually converts?

00:21:37: Because I still see a lot of people that might not have the traffic amount that you have, maybe a little bit less, but still they are very unsatisfied with how their organic search traffic converts.

00:21:51: Yeah, that's that's really good question.

00:21:53: and like true a lot of traffic is good But I think it's not enough is like what kind of traffic you are getting you know It has to be quality traffic and how we are leveraging on the website.

00:22:01: and even if you have a lower traffic It makes so much sense that you know your website that then has to convert like even if I have ten times more traffic.

00:22:09: But if it's not converting, what's the point of so?

00:22:11: but that's where I also feel that wave having the wave team is really Beneficial because I'm constantly like looking all of the different kinds of traffic that we are, you know, is it organic, different types of organic traffic, different types of paid traffic, how they are working, how they are working for specific pages.

00:22:28: And based on that, we can then figure out our testing plan basically like, okay, what do we need to test on the home page?

00:22:34: How can we test the separate pages that we have for paid marketing, you know, because all of the traffic are working in different ways in that every but everything has their own nuances.

00:22:44: So, you know, really trying to tap into those things like What's the traffic?

00:22:48: How can we leverage it?

00:22:49: Where can we send it?

00:22:50: And how can we test it for that specific type of traffic?

00:22:52: So there's no one way to say, or like, that's the total traffic, that's the total conversions.

00:22:57: There's so many different ways to go in that sense.

00:23:00: But how we're handling it in general is that we have this mindset of always having been testing on the by-product, at least more than five years, I would say, already.

00:23:09: We always want to have a test running on all of the key pages, whether it's organic traffic, whether it's paid traffic.

00:23:16: We want to make sure that all of the best practices and learning that we're getting, we are going to implement them across the web, kind of having this spillover effect.

00:23:23: that, you know, if we got one learning from one page, from one test, but we see that the same thing applies to hundreds of other pages, then we try to leverage that one.

00:23:32: Therefore, we're leveraging the traffic also.

00:23:34: And yeah, but there's a lot of different things happening in that sense.

00:23:38: And hence, we're also wrapping up the testing, trying to really solve the customer problems because at the end, you know.

00:23:45: You can have less or more traffic, but if you help to solve the customer problems, then more traffic is just going to convert way better.

00:23:53: And I think that's the big issue with AI.

00:23:55: I know that the people are really afraid that they're going to lose the traffic.

00:23:59: I think that's kind of the wrong perspective to look at.

00:24:01: It's more like, what are you doing with the traffic that you have?

00:24:04: You can have less traffic, but just try to leverage it more, make it stronger, convert more.

00:24:10: But there's a lot of different sites, really, how to tackle it.

00:24:14: Just working with SEO teams together, we paid media team together to make sure that we can help them, we can work together, we can share information, we can consider iterate, share the learnings.

00:24:27: Yeah, no, it makes total sense.

00:24:28: So could it be that, for example, if you run this... successful test on the German homepage with the GDPR example you just mentioned.

00:24:35: So can we imagine it like that that you then think about, hey, would it make sense, for example, to also implement something in that sense across, for example, our content portfolio blog posts, et cetera?

00:24:48: Could this be something where you try to leverage these spillover effects or how can we imagine this?

00:24:54: Yeah, exactly.

00:24:54: A perfect example.

00:24:55: And we have done a similar thing.

00:24:56: when we test some kind of not like a pop-up or some kind of still banner you know to increase the conversions we see it working out really well.

00:25:04: why not to implement similar thing across the blog?

00:25:06: you can all once test it again not to assume anything that it's going to work the same way in some other page.

00:25:12: you test it also in the blog for example and if it works on the blog then you can scale it across across the blog.

00:25:17: basically so that kind of things are always working out really well.

00:25:23: And one objection I always hear and I'd like to hear your thoughts on that is that in the block you basically have.

00:25:32: The same page template so to say all the same page format but the content of the pages and the type of traffic you're getting could be very different between people searching for how to structure the sales pipeline correctly up to.

00:25:47: What is the most efficient follow-up cadence or something like that?

00:25:52: How do you think about running tests across a content portfolio?

00:25:56: For example, specifically the blog, for example, where you might have very different user intents, very different content on there.

00:26:05: How do you think about that?

00:26:07: That's a really good point.

00:26:10: It's always a key to understand what kind of traffic is coming there.

00:26:13: But what we have done is... you pick, for example, top ten blog posts that are similar type, similar content-wise, you test there, because then you have a lot of traffic, you can test quite fast, and then whatever learnings, and if you've got any winder, you just implement it.

00:26:30: for those pages, or maybe for key blog posts, you don't need to cross all of the blog, but you always know the traffic, those are the top twenty, fifty, hundred blog posts, for example, in this category, let's do it there, and same goes to different kinds of traffic, and some blog posts.

00:26:44: They are not even meant maybe for conversion because they are such a top of funnel content.

00:26:49: You know, maybe we can do something else there instead of forcing not forcing but you know, suggesting them first to sign up Maybe we can just give some valuable content for them.

00:26:57: So, yeah, it really matters But you can always I kind of take it into the different parts and try to test in those parts.

00:27:06: Very interesting.

00:27:06: I recently spoke to the founder of a startup and they are, I would say, quite successful, not as successful as Pipedrive, maybe, but decently successful.

00:27:17: And they thought about their blog and their content portfolio as, let's say, the main purpose being just creating awareness.

00:27:27: So when we were talking about conversion optimization there, they were basically not really buying into the point because they felt like, hey, this is not the purpose of this.

00:27:37: And I can imagine that if I would tell you that the purpose of the block at Pipedrive is not to convert into users, you would basically tell me to get the hell out of the room.

00:27:49: So what would you say to someone that feels like, hey, blog and content is this really something that will in the end help me drive more users or drive more pipeline?

00:28:01: I don't understand that perspective and I think there's a lot of truth in that actually, but it's more, you know, flow can still convert.

00:28:09: Yes, it's not going to probably convert as much as home page, for example, or some paid marketing pages.

00:28:14: But if you have a massive amount of flow cost and it's still getting a lot of traffic and you can just increase the conversion a little bit, this can bring a huge result already.

00:28:23: Plus, I think the key thing here is always to understand that yes, somebody lands on the flow.

00:28:27: they are top of the funnel.

00:28:29: they're not planning to convert yet.

00:28:31: what's the next best step for them?

00:28:33: so that's that's something i'm trying to always look out across the web whatever is the page pricing homepage blog pages.

00:28:40: what's the next best step?

00:28:42: for many pages it's a sign up for a blog.

00:28:44: it could be that maybe we should lead that customer or visitor to some landing page which is more better for conversion but they will do that.

00:28:52: they are already getting information content educational content.

00:28:55: you know that they need.

00:28:56: So it's just figuring out what's the best next step for different types of content.

00:29:00: Because yes, like, bloke doesn't have to be only for conversion, but the part is still there and there's always a part that's converting and you should always still focus on that part also while also figuring out, you know, how can you, how can you lead the customer to the better position, you know, so they can get more information.

00:29:18: because customers are always like, I feel customers are really valuing if you are helping them to get into different places in a way that it feels natural, it makes sense, it's logical, they're getting the information they're looking for.

00:29:31: But again, that's where all of the customer problems, customer insights, research, everything like this will come in.

00:29:37: That's already the second nugget if not the third or fourth, but I think I can do a plus one to that point of Thinking about the the best next step.

00:29:47: because I once read the documentation so it's a little bit of an analogy now, but I once read the documentation of Google's new ad placements in AI overviews where they basically give advertisers recommendation of how to most effectively advertise in AI overviews.

00:30:09: And obviously, AI overviews, we will come to that in a second, are displayed also on a lot of top funnel searches and queries.

00:30:16: But I think, and I mean, we have to be careful because Google has shareholder value, shareholder interests, et cetera.

00:30:22: But still, I think they are making a key point there in the documentation.

00:30:26: And they are basically saying, if you want an ad to convert well, So I'm paraphrasing.

00:30:31: If you want an ad to convert well in AI overviews, always think about the best next step for the customer based on the query.

00:30:39: And this makes so much sense.

00:30:40: And I think a lot of people are struggling with thinking about like you have this.

00:30:46: this thing that somebody enters into google chat to be here or wherever and there are basically two dimensions.

00:30:51: i would always try to think about a what's before that.

00:30:55: so what's the desire what's the frustration what's the pain where this is coming from?

00:30:59: so why is somebody putting this query in there?

00:31:03: and then what's the potential next step?

00:31:05: how can we help them?

00:31:06: what is the best next thing to do?

00:31:08: and sometimes and i think you guys are also doing this at pipe drive sometimes it might not be.

00:31:14: the software immediately but it might be an asset like a template maybe a guide maybe a helpful little thing.

00:31:20: so what's your what's your reasoning about that?

00:31:23: so this not because a lot of people feel i think i still hear them talking a lot about how do we get the people to buy immediately.

00:31:34: but i mean there's a wide range of things you can do right.

00:31:39: totally agree and we we know our customer journey quite well.

00:31:42: We know all of the different stages that customers are doing.

00:31:45: It's something that we're constantly keeping up to date.

00:31:48: So, you know, we know where they're going, usually what kind of different steps they're doing, what are the user personas who are, you know, looking out, you know, when adopting that kind of new tool.

00:31:56: So it's like, I totally agree that, you know, there is a step where maybe you just need to start nurturing them, you need to start teaching them a little bit, maybe their first time CRM users.

00:32:06: they need to know information like how to use it, what's here and means you know, what are the features, what are the benefits instead of Excel sheet for example.

00:32:15: So you kind of you help them to get ready into the stage where they feel suddenly that okay now it's good time I'm ready to try out the tool.

00:32:22: I want to give it a go because I often like you cannot force them to use CRM if they even don't know like what what CRM is or how is it working.

00:32:30: So a hundred percent agreeant blog is oftentimes good place for that and it could also like the AI tools and I think AI tools will pick up that also quite well.

00:32:39: that if our blog for example is helping to answer those questions then AI tool will also do a good job.

00:32:45: And how do you think you already mentioned nurturing?

00:32:47: So how do you think about lead magnets?

00:32:49: or I mean, there are loads of different ways to say this conversion assets, whatever.

00:32:54: But I see that you guys have like a wide range of different templates, for example, like sales employee review templates, sales order templates, free slide templates, all of that stuff.

00:33:09: So which role do those like lead magnets, if you call it like.

00:33:14: like that.

00:33:16: Which role do they play?

00:33:19: Really good question.

00:33:20: In general, that's what they're playing.

00:33:23: We're just at the end giving out helpful content that customers can use.

00:33:27: Exactly.

00:33:28: Some customers might not be ready for CRM.

00:33:30: We give them tools that they can start exploring or it is some things where they can also slowly start seeing that actually using a CRM could help them to solve more problems or just some helpful content or educating them with something.

00:33:45: we feel it and I feel it, it's really useful in a sense and we see like data is packing it up that you know customers who are checking those informations.

00:33:54: they are downloading those things.

00:33:56: at the end they will convert more because they just know more.

00:33:59: they're in a better position as a potential customers to start using the tool.

00:34:04: You should always have that kind of things because like you never have just one type of customers.

00:34:08: you have customers who are already Experts in CRM, they have used quite different tools maybe in the past.

00:34:14: You have customers who have never used anything, maybe just Excel sheet.

00:34:17: All of them need different approaches, different educational content, different blog posts, different landing pages.

00:34:25: There are no one right or correct way only.

00:34:29: Very cool.

00:34:30: I think this is also something that a lot of very successful SaaS companies did.

00:34:37: So I once read this medium article from Jörg Hipper, who was leading also the web team at Personio.

00:34:46: And I mean, Personio is also decently successful, I would say.

00:34:51: I mean, I'm a little bit biased because I'm from Germany and Personius is obviously a big German success story.

00:34:56: So I can't be a hundred percent neutral, but he had this very cool quote and it's related to their strategy of also creating loads and loads of lead magnets like from checklists, onboarding templates to vacation, planning templates, all of that stuff.

00:35:13: So connected always to a specific HR problem.

00:35:17: And he said that balance is also giving the user what they want while getting from them what you want, offer different conversion opportunities so they can just pick which suits them.

00:35:32: Would you underwrite this quote?

00:35:34: A hundred percent.

00:35:35: I think that's a really good way to say it.

00:35:37: And like for us, one of the biggest successful lead magnets, I wouldn't even call it a lead magnet, it's just educational pieces.

00:35:45: Since the beginning of Viper, our founders did like a sales course just to help people learn sales, nothing related to CRM even.

00:35:53: Just learn the sales and we see that people who are going through that course, they are way more keen to also start using CRM because they just know more, they got the educational content.

00:36:05: At the end it's just about Making sure that customers feel good and then they will also be there really good customers.

00:36:11: But this is just another nugget, Marius, that you're dropping here because you just said it like they were doing a sales course and they were not doing a CRM course.

00:36:20: because in the end I would say for most software it's true.

00:36:24: The software is a facilitator.

00:36:26: for another thing that you want to accomplish.

00:36:28: So if we're thinking about CRM, you want to accomplish better sales journeys, at least for Pipedrive.

00:36:34: Maybe also, I mean, Pipedrive has obviously also went more into some marketing features, et cetera.

00:36:40: So this could also be something, but I think also for personials, so what do you want to accomplish with the software?

00:36:46: you want to hire people more easily?

00:36:49: help your HR department or people or culture department make people more happy, make onboarding, offboarding, everything more seamless.

00:36:57: So usually I think people think too much about their software and the category, right?

00:37:02: Instead of thinking about what does the user actually want to achieve while using my software?

00:37:10: You're dropping a lot of nuggets here, my friends.

00:37:12: So this is really cool.

00:37:13: I think very valuable episode already.

00:37:16: You mentioned something where I feel like it's a little bit the elephant in the room, which is like AI search, AI platforms, however you want to call it.

00:37:24: So basically people not only going to Google Bing, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo anymore, but also going to chat, GPT, Gemini to Proplexity.

00:37:34: And we know that AI overviews, which is basically for everybody that's not that doesn't connect this keyword to something visible.

00:37:44: It's basically this little box at the top of the Google search results where you get a little bit like a summary of the most important key points when you're searching something.

00:37:54: And we know that AI overviews and tools like Chatchabity are already changing how people discover products.

00:38:00: I think there's a lot of truth to that, but also a lot of hype, and it's hard to find the balance.

00:38:06: I would like to hear from you If you're already seeing changes, for example, in where users land on your site, especially from organic search or AI search.

00:38:16: Really good question.

00:38:18: It's a big topic where, of course, we're always keeping our eyes out.

00:38:22: I would say today it's a little bit too early to tell.

00:38:24: Of course, we see traffic coming from JetGPD and so forth, the conversion from those channels.

00:38:32: Right now, we can see that it is higher.

00:38:34: It could even be three or five times higher.

00:38:36: But again, the traffic is still... low enough not to make any assumptions.

00:38:40: I think it's too early.

00:38:41: It's more like also.

00:38:42: we have a fantastic ESO team and what they are also doing is just constantly experimenting, testing out because I would say agree to disagree with AI.

00:38:52: There are no rule playbooks yet.

00:38:54: There are no set like you have to do it like this.

00:38:56: Everybody are constantly exploring.

00:38:58: You are sharing really good different tips, how to kind of reverse engineer.

00:39:03: where chatGPD is getting results, you know, should you go there also?

00:39:07: All of that kind of stuff is that we're constantly just trying to play out, you know, explore, see what works, what doesn't, you know, but because for CRM also, you know, user journeys, it's quite a long journey in that sense.

00:39:19: It's not that somebody just goes to the chatGPD as something and they will sign up.

00:39:24: There might be multiple steps before that or after that.

00:39:26: So even if somebody used chatGPD, for example, to compare CRMs, it doesn't mean they will come directly from JGPD.

00:39:35: They still might have five different steps between, and there might be a different person at the end who is actually signing up from their sales team, for example.

00:39:44: So it's just too early to make any big assumptions, because I know it's quite easy, and LinkedIn really likes that kind of full different statements, but it's just... Surely to make any big assumptions, we are exploring, seeing what works, you know, how the traffic is improving, you know, how we are getting more AI traffic, how does it affect our general organic traffic.

00:40:05: But again, there's just so many different ways, and same time, the focus is still there, like, how can we make the pages to convert more, even if traffic dynamics are changing in whatever way?

00:40:15: How can we make it convert in a better way?

00:40:17: That's still the focus at the end, but I think that should be always to focus even.

00:40:21: if there are companies and people out there who are really worried that they're losing their SEO traffic, still focus like how can you leverage the traffic that may be from AI is way higher intent than the usual Google traffic.

00:40:32: So it's already different dynamic, which means your work might be way easier to make them to convert.

00:40:37: So there's a lot of different sides and there's no one way to look at it, I would say.

00:40:43: I think also a lot of people in the past, they were just really blessed to get a lot of traffic from Google.

00:40:51: So for example, based on creating glossary content or all that kind of stuff, which is now being particularly affected by AI overviews and also like AI chatbots.

00:41:04: So people based on them getting really a lot of traffic from these forums, I think they de-prioritized or not enough prioritized conversion optimization, right?

00:41:16: I still feel this.

00:41:17: So when we, for example, talk to a potential new client, one thing that is, and we're talking about like organic search, we're talking about paid search, one first key thing that we're talking about is actually conversion optimization.

00:41:32: So how can you leverage traffic better, right?

00:41:35: Have you also seen a shift like in mindset in your SEO team or in PetRef in general?

00:41:41: Like we have a lot of discussions and collaboration with SEO team lately, I would say that we're really focusing like, you know, how can we make those pages better?

00:41:49: Like what, how should we approach in different way?

00:41:52: And in general, I think what many companies are maybe doing, which I would say by drive is doing different place that, you know, we're diversifying our channels.

00:42:00: and it's not just SEO, it's paid, you know, it's brand PR.

00:42:04: I would say, I can just my opinion, but I feel disabilities.

00:42:08: in this year anymore, it's not just about SEO, it's brand mentions, that kind of things.

00:42:12: AI really likes founder-led content, PR, like we have also fantastic PR team, all of that kind of things where your brand is getting mentioned across different media outlets, news, all of that is going to also help AI.

00:42:27: It's not just about SEO and hence also the conversion rate is a massive opportunity.

00:42:33: But yeah, I feel people are looking from different ways.

00:42:35: Of course, there are still people who are maybe a little bit too worried about just SEO.

00:42:39: But right now, it's definitely time to move away from just SEO and seeing what are all of the other sites that you need to make sure that they will work together.

00:42:49: So I can also help your business at the end.

00:42:52: Let's tap into that because I mean let's imagine a customer journey.

00:42:55: You also mentioned this earlier, which is quite diverse.

00:42:58: So let's think about someone that because actually this is also here a web mention or a brand mention of pipe drive this interview.

00:43:09: Let's imagine someone that is like leading marketing.

00:43:13: at a startup scale up company, they also have a big sales team.

00:43:17: They are watching this and they're sending the video to their head of sales, for example, and tell them, hey, we're using HubSpot, right?

00:43:25: But I mean, these guys at Piper, if they are doing a pretty good job, should we look into that?

00:43:30: Now, they are, for example, going to the website, it's probably direct traffic, then they're maybe going to Google or to church activity, comparing to HubSpot, maybe reading through an article from you.

00:43:40: How do you guys approach attribution?

00:43:43: because i can feel like this is a total mess with the company.

00:43:46: so like no total mess in terms of your internal operation but in terms of the actual customer journey.

00:43:51: with so many touchpoints across so many different channels like youtube chat jpt a pr story linkedin reading something from your founder or maybe the the or seeing the sales course how do you try to add somehow accurately attribute which touch point drives How much user signups?

00:44:14: That's a really good question.

00:44:16: That's a really good topic.

00:44:17: I would say there's no, again, just one way to look at it.

00:44:20: What we are doing is that, again, we know our customer journey.

00:44:23: So we, for different types of personas, different types of customers, so you already kind of know that for that kind of customers, that's the final stage.

00:44:31: So that's the last place where they are really starting to sign up for different types of customers.

00:44:36: It's different.

00:44:37: We are constantly looking, you know, you can check like, First touch attribution, last touch attribution, kind of comparing those things.

00:44:45: We have marketing optimization team who is helping with that kind of things also.

00:44:50: There's no, and I think there cannot be like one way that will give you all of the like ideal overview because it's like the real world is not perfect.

00:44:58: The way customers are handling, researching, it's never going to be exactly the same for all of them.

00:45:02: So yeah, but it's just, at the end, we still know that, you know, what kind of types of customers are coming more from paid traffic what kind of?

00:45:10: more from organic who are going through sales actually.

00:45:13: so in general we have quite good understanding of our customer types and also we have a fantastic research team who is helping a lot with that kind of understanding in general like how customers are approaching what are all of those stages and that helps us in general.

00:45:29: So what I hear between the lines is also that you have to have conviction, right?

00:45:35: So if you do, for example, PR, if you do brand initiatives, you sometimes just have to have conviction that that will eventually lead to more people searching for pipe drive or Also this dark social thing, like where they talk to their colleagues or where they ask for help.

00:45:53: Hey, we're thinking about implementing CRM software.

00:45:55: Should we go with HubSpot?

00:45:56: Should we go with Pipedrive?

00:45:58: All that kind of stuff, right?

00:45:59: Yeah,

00:46:00: a hundred percent.

00:46:00: Like it's a typical problem with brand people that, you know, it's difficult for them to measure data success, but brand awareness is such an important.

00:46:08: That kind of podcast are such an important, but it's difficult to pinpoint that, you know, your business increased so much because of just this one podcast.

00:46:15: same as going to the events or conferences, brand awareness is something you always need to figure out.

00:46:20: You cannot pinpoint just one thing to everything, the business impact of this thing is that much.

00:46:25: All of those things need to play together, especially now with the AI, like SEO, PR, it all has to play together because otherwise it's just not going to work out and you cannot have different teams trying to just run in their own direction.

00:46:39: you have to collaborate, you have to make sure that together it's going to be successful because then it's one business, you want to make sure that business is going to succeed, not just your team.

00:46:47: Super interesting.

00:46:49: We are already talking for a couple of minutes and it's been super interesting so far.

00:46:56: We got a few questions beforehand from LinkedIn where we made the announcement that we will do this talk and it's really cool.

00:47:02: and I would like to.

00:47:04: um here are thoughts on these questions and i promised to to people who were asking them to get back to them with the answers.

00:47:11: so share everyone through them real quick

00:47:14: let's go

00:47:16: nice.

00:47:16: so the first one was how do you balance zero?

00:47:20: so conversion rate optimization experiments with the need to keep seo pages stable.

00:47:28: Yeah, that's really good question.

00:47:29: I think there's so many different sides how we can look at it.

00:47:31: Like one thing is definitely like whenever we are AP testing something, let's take the home page and let's take some copy tests.

00:47:38: We're always thinking about SEO and we're always including SEO when we might touch or improve or edit something that might potentially affect SEO in a negative or positive way because we don't want to have a winning test that we tested some really good headline and it's a winning test for conversion.

00:47:56: But we know that if we would implement it, SEO numbers would just tank for that kind of page.

00:48:00: So it's just collaboration.

00:48:01: That's a key thing.

00:48:03: In general, also from my team perspective, we have like divided team in a way that, you know, we're helping SEO team with all of the publishing and that kind of stuff.

00:48:11: We're optimizing as a different part of the team, but then it's just the all has to work together.

00:48:17: the same spillover effect that I mentioned that you know we're testing something.

00:48:20: we see.

00:48:20: how can we spill over same thing to different SEO pages, blog content, different SEO landing pages?

00:48:27: so we can also help them to win?

00:48:29: so yeah there's all of that sites but collaboration is always the key because teams have to work together.

00:48:35: you they have to share what are their plans.

00:48:37: we can share what are our plans?

00:48:39: how can we work together?

00:48:40: how can we help them to test something so they can help to improve their numbers?

00:48:44: and I think that's the point of question.

00:48:46: You know, you're there to help all of other teams to improve their stuff.

00:48:51: Therefore, we are going to also improve our own team.

00:48:54: It's a very great philosophy.

00:48:55: So basically, you're always getting the expert from the channel, so to say, on board.

00:49:02: And if the SEO team, for example, gives clearance, like it's fine to do these changes, and we think this will not negatively affect or.

00:49:10: even it might negatively affect.

00:49:12: It's a calculatable risk.

00:49:15: Exactly.

00:49:16: We have had many tests where we know that there might be a potential impact.

00:49:20: We consult with SOD.

00:49:23: They say, let's do it.

00:49:25: But still, that's not enough.

00:49:27: You shouldn't stop there.

00:49:28: You should go back one month, two months later, and together with SOD, for example, check what was the real impact.

00:49:34: Did it have any negative impact?

00:49:35: Maybe it had actually a positive impact.

00:49:37: Maybe it had two negative impacts, so it should be all back something.

00:49:41: For me, it's such a key thing to always have that kind of cycle going on that you should always... It goes to our web team also.

00:49:47: Whatever we are executing for different teams, we should have that kind of loop like, okay, we did this for you.

00:49:53: Did it actually work?

00:49:54: Maybe we should do it next time differently instead of just doing it in the same way on repeat on constant basis.

00:49:59: We should always have that kind of system in place to go like, did it work?

00:50:03: Should we improve something?

00:50:04: Then it's going to be also useful for all of the other teams.

00:50:08: Awesome.

00:50:10: Do the next question.

00:50:11: Let's do.

00:50:12: Next one, and I think you already tapped a little bit into that, but maybe you can share a little bit more of your detailed thoughts about it or something interesting you found.

00:50:22: The question is, I am especially interested in how AI Search slash AI Overviews affects Pipe Drive.

00:50:29: Do they also see less but higher qualified traffic?

00:50:34: Yeah, as I mentioned, it's probably too early to really tell too much or assume too much.

00:50:40: But yeah, we see like some traffic there, it's still not the amount of traffic we get from SEO or paid marketing.

00:50:46: And we see higher conversion rate right there right now, which is also kind of expected because the intent probably is already higher.

00:50:52: Like if they're already, you know, using JetGPD to understand the competitors, our features, intent is already higher.

00:50:59: So it kind of makes sense that the conversion is actually higher.

00:51:02: But yeah, it's more like wait and see, test out different things.

00:51:05: And probably if we're going to have similar chat in one year.

00:51:09: I could share way more and you know how it's going today.

00:51:11: It's just too early to make any bold assumptions.

00:51:14: Awesome idea.

00:51:15: Let's have this on tape.

00:51:17: Let's do an update call in one year to see how things turned out because I also feel like there's so much change going on.

00:51:26: Currently, the next month will be so interesting and checking in again in a year is a great idea.

00:51:32: Yeah.

00:51:33: And again, this testing mentality is the thing that everybody should consider here.

00:51:37: Just play out.

00:51:38: reverse engineer, see what works, see what doesn't.

00:51:41: Don't do massive projects that are going to take three months because in three months situation has changed already.

00:51:46: So just basically figure out what can you do this week and measure it next week and just keep repeating the same cycle.

00:51:54: Test, learn, test, learn.

00:51:56: Awesome.

00:51:56: I think like as a company at the scale of pipe drive that you are working with this type of velocity is amazing.

00:52:05: So I think there are a lot of companies at your scale that have lost a lot of this speed from their startup stage and that you have like, I mean, this is probably a reason why you are still so successful, right?

00:52:18: The speed, the velocity like.

00:52:21: not taking three months to plan out something and then another three months to implement it.

00:52:27: I'm amazed by that, I have to be honest here.

00:52:31: Last question we got beforehand from LinkedIn is a little bit a different angle.

00:52:35: In which industries are you getting better traction with and which ones are your priority, if different?

00:52:43: That's a really good question.

00:52:44: There are probably two different sizes.

00:52:47: One is like, I would say there is no specific industry because then Pytra is made for salespeople, by salespeople, like our founders, who are salespeople.

00:52:54: So whatever industry, whatever company has a sales team, salespeople, one salesperson, we are for them in that sense.

00:53:02: So there is no specific industry that we're really targeting.

00:53:05: Of course, at the end of the day, after all of those years, we have specific industries that are maybe more key to use Pytra because some industries might have more.

00:53:14: industry specific C rems that you know they need some specifications, you know that maybe by cannot offer.

00:53:21: But in general, the main attitude and yeah, is still that it's just for sales.

00:53:27: So whatever industry you are, if you're a sales team salesperson, then you can use by drive get benefit out of that.

00:53:34: Very cool.

00:53:35: I think a very clear ICP is very helpful, right in aligning marketing and sales and all the operations.

00:53:43: So.

00:53:44: Very cool.

00:53:46: Nice.

00:53:48: I think we are almost approaching an hour and it has been a blast so far.

00:53:55: So I would suggest that we wrap things up a little bit.

00:53:58: And for wrapping up, I always like to give people that are still watching or listening a little bit of practical takeaways.

00:54:07: So I want to ask you what would be like two to three practical tips.

00:54:14: You'd give to someone running web strategy at a SaaS company, maybe a little bit smaller than PipeDrive, maybe same-scale as PipeDrive, who's seeing their traffic patterns change due to AI.

00:54:25: What should they be focusing on to ensure conversions don't suffer?

00:54:30: That's a really good question.

00:54:32: I'm probably going to repeat a couple of things, but I think that's fine.

00:54:35: First thing I would say again is just this this this and this mall.

00:54:39: don't this maybe even like big thing this mall.

00:54:42: try to do something every week every month every two weeks.

00:54:45: you know see what works what doesn't I?

00:54:47: just because the world is adjusting so fast right now that you just need to you know be up to date and see what works time for now.

00:54:54: right now next month situation is different.

00:54:56: so don't spend months doing something this small always.

00:55:00: And it doesn't need baby testing, it can just testing mentality, experimentation mentality, try to have it across different parts of your business at the end.

00:55:08: Now, second thing, maybe when it comes to the SEO and traffic, just think about non-traditional ways to get your website into AI tools.

00:55:17: It can be PR, it can be using Reddit, brand founders being more vocal, doing that kind of podcast events, whatever, basically figure out all of those different ways, again, try to reverse and share what works for AI.

00:55:29: what kind of resources or sources they are using, try to see if those sources are applying to your business, could you do something like this?

00:55:37: So yeah, just think about non-traditional ways.

00:55:41: And third thing, maybe even if you see traffic being reduced, optimize where the traffic lands, like focus on optimization, see where the traffic lands, maybe don't think that much about the traffic itself.

00:55:51: Think about where the traffic is landing and try to optimize that, make sure.

00:55:56: that's top notch you know and keep optimizing it.

00:55:58: never be happy that you know.

00:55:59: now you had a winning test.

00:56:00: it's optimized.

00:56:01: keep going.

00:56:02: you know there's so much to do.

00:56:04: traffic is changing.

00:56:05: people are changing.

00:56:06: the ways they are looking for.

00:56:07: information is changing so just keep optimizing whatever the traffic is landing for you.

00:56:12: awesome.

00:56:13: I haven't counted but there have been multiple nuggets in this talk so it was really really cool.

00:56:20: Marcus Thanks so much for doing it.

00:56:22: Thanks so much for sharing your insights, your expertise, your hands on knowledge from Pipetrev.

00:56:27: I think this has been invaluable for people.

00:56:30: If someone listening or hearing this wants to see more of you, see more of your ideas, thoughts, content, whatever, where should people go to find you?

00:56:41: The best place probably will be just... Connect me in LinkedIn.

00:56:45: I'm trying to share a lot of about web world optimization, conversion, all of that basically a no-go tool.

00:56:51: So hopefully sharing a lot of good stuff there, but that's the best place to connect with me.

00:56:55: And of course, you can always follow Viper in LinkedIn also.

00:56:59: So that would be the best way to connect with me.

00:57:02: And of course, if anybody has some questions, feel free to reach out, happy to discuss it, happy to ideate about different things, just see where everything's going.

00:57:10: Awesome.

00:57:10: I will put the link to your profile in the video description below so people have an easy time finding you.

00:57:18: I can't thank you enough for that.

00:57:20: It has been awesome.

00:57:22: I'm leaving this talk with a lot of inspiration, with a lot of new ideas.

00:57:29: Thanks for much for doing that.

00:57:30: And I wish you all the best for yourself personally, but also for Pipedrive.

00:57:37: Keep crushing.

00:57:38: I think you've set a great example in the SaaS industry.

00:57:42: And yeah, hopefully we'll do an update call in a year and see how things are going then.

00:57:48: Thanks for having me.

00:57:48: It was super, super nice.

00:57:50: Let's do it again.

00:57:51: Thanks so much, Markus.

00:57:53: See you.

00:57:53: Thank you.

00:57:54: See you.

00:57:55: Bye-bye.