How ChatGPT reads YouTube, Reddit and your site | David Konitzny, GEO Researcher @ Peec AI

00:00:00: If I'm not mistaken, being a GEO researcher at Peec AI basically means that you are now a LinkedIn influencer right?

00:00:09: I think it's the side effect of this.

00:00:12: Don't drop Reddit just because somebody on LinkedIn said, It is not used anymore!

00:00:19: As you hear, it was not really relevant but somehow there.

00:00:37: Right now the number is up to twenty-eight percent so twenty-eight percent of all fanouts have a site operator.

00:00:44: to me too.

00:00:45: be fast nowadays.

00:00:46: if I wait for another week or some other AI model will change And then that's old information.

00:00:52: before we dive in You're listening To The Masters Of Search podcast with Me your host Niklas Buschner.

00:00:59: Each week, I sit down with some of these smartest people around the world in SEO and AI search to bring you their strategies mental models.

00:01:07: And top pieces of actionable advice.

00:01:09: if You enjoy this podcast don't forget to like and subscribe and follow it In your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

00:01:16: It helps us get top-notch guests and create the best possible content for you.

00:01:20: Let's dive into todays episode.

00:01:22: Welcome to the Masters of Search podcast.

00:01:24: Today is a very special episode, because for the first time besides our monthly Landwehr format we have a guest here... ...for the second time!

00:01:35: For let's say a recap episode but I don't know actually how much time will it take for a recap?

00:01:41: Because so many things are happening and probably look more towards the future.

00:01:46: David Konitzny, so cool to have you David.

00:01:50: Before I introduce you and give a little bit of context i want to put an advertising plug here because we will host the Masters Of Search conference in actually only two weeks time Here In Berlin twenty-second of October And We Still Have A Few Tickets Left And David Will Also Be A Speaker At The Conference.

00:02:14: And David, I would like you to tell people why it's a absolutely fantastic idea... ...to still get one of the last tickets and come to The Conference.

00:02:23: Yes!

00:02:24: First of all thanks for being here once again.

00:02:27: You should definitely come to the conference because this is one of bigger conferences right now that are established.

00:02:33: That will give you an opportunity to talk about GEO, not just mingling around but also networking people who are speaking there, more or less like experts right now on all the topics.

00:02:46: More-or-less because it's still very young I would say a young thing to discuss here and as you said i will be also there!

00:02:55: I'll give you small recap in thirty minutes.

00:02:59: regarding fanouts how can actually see fan-outs?

00:03:02: How do they work with them?

00:03:03: Like we're in depth session so really go into conference get last tickets of course join my sessions

00:03:12: So cool.

00:03:13: Yeah, David will host the workshop.

00:03:15: we'll also have other awesome speakers like Jennifer Lapp, previously at HubSpot, now at Brevo.

00:03:22: Amir Bohnenkamp, co-founder of Heyflow Malte Landwehr, also basically your boss right?

00:03:28: from Peec AI Fabrizio Ballarini.

00:03:32: Now Revolut!

00:03:33: Previously ten years at Wise Margus Veeber, head of web at Pipedrive will have Aleyda Solis.

00:03:40: I think everybody that has spent at least five minutes on LinkedIn knows Aleyda.

00:03:45: So cool.

00:03:46: Many others, Marvin Müller, Anita Kirkovska

00:03:50: etc.,

00:03:51: so cool!

00:03:53: Yeah check out the link in description.

00:03:54: we'll put it there masters-of-search.com slash conference and you find that they're yeah but enough of advertising David The last time we spoke You had a different job.

00:04:10: What

00:04:10: happened between?

00:04:13: What happened?

00:04:14: Basically I was talking to Malte and a few months later, I joined Peec AI.

00:04:21: That's the very short version of what happened!

00:04:23: So previously i was head of product organic at KKP my former agency he was working with And everything was awesome.

00:04:32: so...I would never actually go away from an agency that there was an opportunity and I think everybody who is doing SEO or anything in regards of this would decide the same, if you have the opportunity to spend your whole day just on research.

00:04:48: Just looking at the biggest database I guess nobody would really say no to a job like this.

00:04:56: So, it was one of the onetime chance for you get that question and we want to join!

00:05:03: We do have all data which is clear in this regard.

00:05:08: Okay but if i'm not mistaken being a GEO researcher at Peec AI basically means your now a LinkedIn influencer right?

00:05:19: No, not really.

00:05:21: I think it's a side effect of this.

00:05:22: so why we are actually so visible on LinkedIn is the reason to share our knowledge.

00:05:29: So right now everybody sees this on LinkedIn Everybody sharing everything regarding AI search And everybody of course has a different opinion.

00:05:40: Mostly the issue is that those opinions are based on smaller tests, so you have like five prompts to execute for week and based on their results You decide okay this now my hypothesis This result at end.

00:05:54: We as research team we do have point-of-data The whole day just looking at patterns And therefore also we share everything because I think this is like the most relevant part, not just keeping knowledge and talking in the office all of time about what's changing but sharing everything.

00:06:14: Also to see if others come up with other ideas.

00:06:18: so recently we shared everything regarding the leak data that we have from ChatGPT all the search engines that have been used.

00:06:26: And of course, we sometimes also have no idea what those search engines are doing.

00:06:31: so rely on the community to help us find certain things.

00:06:36: do some research from their own share everything.

00:06:39: So if you can do this together at the end

00:06:42: Cool You published quite a lot and you've been doing Quite A Lot Of Research.

00:06:49: If you had to pick one or two of your favorite Insights, favorite projects or however you would call them yourself.

00:06:58: What would that be?

00:07:01: I will say in particular two things.

00:07:03: One of the latest ones i published was regarding YouTube and how ChatGPT

00:07:09: in this regard is actually reading YouTube videos Which is kind of different to what everybody else was expecting all time.

00:07:16: And second one Is coming on handy nowadays again because Six months ago, I was sharing a small research regarding ChatGPT Deep Research.

00:07:28: Everybody knows that deep-research functionality with ChatGPT doesn't matter here right now.

00:07:33: but the findings... ...I had there are actually something we see more and more coming in handy for analyzing ChatGPT The default version so to say And i will talk about this today as well.

00:07:46: So those were two main paths.

00:07:49: uh approaches to my heart right now and everything else that you see on linkedin as i said is like every day research everyday.

00:07:57: it's not that I create everything at once, just share in the next coming weeks.

00:08:03: It really when I shared something in the morning, sometimes or evening and immediately share something because you need to be fast nowadays.

00:08:11: If I wait for another week or some other AI model will change then it's all information so its always a new shit i'm posting so to say

00:08:22: Very cool.

00:08:24: Can you give us a little insight or summary key takeaways around the YouTube thing?

00:08:30: Because I feel like on one hand, You posted something interesting about YouTube but also posted something interesting in Reddit and both as UGC platforms somehow connected.

00:08:47: so what did you find there?

00:08:48: So, we all have this one chart in mind when ChatGPT was switching from five to point-five to five point six the model version that Reddit went down and retriever.

00:09:01: So Reddit is basically not visible anymore.

00:09:04: And all these amazing strategies regarding let's use Reddit for our AI visibility and nothing else they Basically build it up.

00:09:11: so This was one of those things that be knew about And what I found in the last couple of days was that it's not just Reddit, but also YouTube and other platforms.

00:09:24: So there is those UGC platforms so user-generated content platforms that are dropping... ...and this drop from YouTube is NOT connected to the model switch which is kind of interesting here Out of context, so to say.

00:09:39: It just happened I think on the twenty-eighth September around this time.

00:09:43: So there was no model switch in between.

00:09:45: There was nothing happening.

00:09:46: it went just down.

00:09:49: and what went down?

00:09:50: What i mean with is those platforms are not used often anymore On a retrieval And now they're still retrieved.

00:10:03: But for ChatGPT, they were one of the main platforms to take all the information out.

00:10:09: So we retrieved it all the time so that you could get all the informations.

00:10:12: Nowadays, the search works a bit differently.

00:10:15: It's going away from just like broader search towards specific searches.

00:10:21: That is why we have those site operators For example or the term official in the fan-outs.

00:10:26: We are particularly looking at certain domains and platforms To receive this information.

00:10:31: So one of the things that I was looking at for those UGC platforms, really hard work right now.

00:10:41: All their AI platforms were completely different!

00:10:44: That is one main key point here.

00:10:47: so don't drop Reddit just because somebody on LinkedIn said it isn't used anymore.

00:10:54: Maybe its not for ChatGPT so useful any more but for AI Overviews and AI Mode for any other platform, they have still retrieved quite hard.

00:11:03: So I wouldn't say like you shouldn't focus anymore on Reddit because this would be false information and it also really helps in the regards of ChatGPT.

00:11:13: as I said we are using Reddit for certain key effects.

00:11:18: so if For example, a new product coming out and there's nowhere something written about it.

00:11:24: It still makes sense to create like maybe a post on Reddit to have the community discuss this new feature of your platform because disinformation will be retrieved And we'll be used especially good for fact-checking.

00:11:35: for.

00:11:36: so say So if a lot of people are claiming that you're let's say one of the prizes options You can also use Reddit too.

00:11:44: We describe This the sentence and say well those are our pricing options and we're actually not so expensive as others are saying.

00:11:53: So this is in regards to Reddit as I said, YouTube it's the same thing that I shared with Retrieval went down doesn't mean that Youtube isn't important but what was really trigger for my next research was a lot of comments on my LinkedIn post were telling me that oh actually ChatGPT is just using the transcripts from your video Transcript part was then frequently because I want to understand how it's actually ChatGPT retrieving information from your video.

00:12:26: So this is really like a just basic transcript always with something different, so what you need to know?

00:12:31: Understand here is ChatGPT as a set has Like seventy search engines in between or seventy pipelines that's using.

00:12:40: so It's not just one single source Let's say Google or Bing, which we all know.

00:12:45: But there are like multiple layers of libraries sort to say and like seventy percent off this library belongs to Labrador Which you know by now is the internal index from ChatGPT.

00:12:58: And within those pipelines There also a specific pipeline for YouTube.

00:13:02: So they're using something To retrieve information From Youtube.

00:13:06: Now Of course A lot people Are testing This.

00:13:10: paste a YouTube link into my chat, it tells me yeah information couldn't be retrieved.

00:13:17: Correct because this is like the life of fetching and fetching is not working for YouTube but the information you to um ChatGPT receiving is coming from different pipelines so they're same.

00:13:27: And in this pipeline its really basic thing.

00:13:30: Because what's happening here is that just placed one external provider into their pipeline to receive the information.

00:13:38: And I think all of you know SerpApi, there are different versions of how you can receive information from Google, from Google News and also different versions off How You Can Actually Get Information From YouTube's!

00:13:51: One of those pipelines is actually not taking that transcript but just description underneath your video.

00:13:58: And this is what I found out, it's actually getting when it's retrieving a video.

00:14:05: so its not looking at the transcripts or videos and all but just reading whats underneath your video.

00:14:13: The whole description!

00:14:27: So it's kind of easy for everybody to understand.

00:14:29: Yeah, It's the description and everything that is in there will be used.

00:14:33: so if you have a long Description regarding I did the test i think with pizza dough how To make a perfect Pizza dough?

00:14:40: And You could actually find all The ingredients Everything In the Description Which also just a key was referring to at the end.

00:14:48: one Of the best things which could be also a good strategy, was you can also include timestamps.

00:14:55: So there are automatic time stamps underneath every video that will not be retrieved but actually includes your own timestamps and using those timestamps basically tell them what's inside of the video.

00:15:10: And exactly this is then also retrieved for example the answer would like in Admin This video will describe how to create this perfect pizza dough.

00:15:22: And in minute seventy, you'll see the pizza dough is going into the oven for example!

00:15:29: You need to keep in mind this whole chat.

00:15:49: functionality will change the future.

00:15:50: So right now we also always see just a plain text.

00:15:55: and recently, We also see like products for example showing up images showing up And sometimes if there's The reason for the system so-to say To show you your video Also our video will be shown.

00:16:08: For let us say I want to clean my car.

00:16:10: How can i clean my windshields in the perfect way.

00:16:14: And what technique do I need to put into this?

00:16:17: You can see all of a sudden video and as i said, one layer is like your description.

00:16:24: The other layers which are also found out were some really interesting parts because it's about you views , your followers.

00:16:35: So verify channel.

00:16:37: It's kind of easy to achieve.

00:16:38: views and Followers might be harder, but I think everybody who is doing this in a Way deeper way than I am i do This.

00:16:48: they know certain ways how to increase views and followers And those numbers are also teared in buckets for the same and For every bucket you receive an additional with value.

00:17:01: so at the end what you can't do is By all the scorings, the scoring is taking your description into account.

00:17:08: Your title, you're description of the URL and it's also taken to account views and followers.

00:17:15: so if you have more views than other video that was taken in retrieval Chances are very high that you will be the chosen video to be shown and in a chat version.

00:17:28: And this would like what we call it back in the yesterdays, like small boost.

00:17:33: so having certain things on your page Will give us more boost?

00:17:38: Having like more views and more followers who gives you also more boost for YouTube videos or the same.

00:17:43: okay David That was A lot of information and the my job here is to boil it down in a very simple way for people that listen To this they do not spend so much time with all The research as you know, so My first question Is?

00:18:00: So should we still Do something on Reddit?

00:18:04: We are obviously keeping In mind.

00:18:06: We don't want to spam etc.

00:18:08: authentic engagement Etc.

00:18:10: But Should People Still do Something On Reddit yes or no?

00:18:14: Yes, yes for sure.

00:18:16: Okay then second question how can people still know which threads or which subreddits are relevant if it's not possible to see transparently?

00:18:27: For example in retrieval or citation data in tools like Peec AI Like?

00:18:34: How do I know where?

00:18:35: two were too.

00:18:36: go on Reddit because its obviously a huge platform.

00:18:39: As I said, the retrieval data is not at zero.

00:18:43: So you will still see certain threads showing up in your citations for example and i would really like aim for those because they are most relevant ones that should be activated.

00:18:54: And do you think that beyond the threads and Reddit URLs, we can still see in the retrieval?

00:19:01: Do you think there is an indexed corpus etc.

00:19:08: that OpenAI amuses that we just cannot see?

00:19:12: or does it really think a tiny fraction of what used to be retrieved from Reddit... ...is relevant?

00:19:20: and I don't know, OpenAI has changed their mind about the relevancy of Reddit.

00:19:24: No, there is actually one pipeline called Reddit within the code that we can see.

00:19:29: So they are still storing information and I think their just like trying to understand how use this information way more easier for us.

00:19:39: And i would never say switch now or go away from Reddit because you will never know.

00:19:45: if this trend going up again at some point where it'll be important again then build everything once again.

00:19:53: So keep your things that right.

00:19:56: Okay, then for YouTube?

00:19:59: Is it still something people should focus on either optimizing existing YouTube videos or creating new YouTube videos?

00:20:07: Most definitely because all LLMs are working the same way.

00:20:10: search everywhere.

00:20:11: so every information about you everywhere will be at some point retrieved and understanding how YouTube is actually retreat from ChatGPT makes just way easier now.

00:20:23: Then if people might not have huge budgets, how important is actually the content of this video?

00:20:32: Like what's in it compared to packaging.

00:20:37: So the title and description And follow up question already How important are these thumbnails?

00:20:43: Do we have data on them?

00:20:46: Regarding thumbnails, I don't have real data about this but it could be a great research for coming up with that.

00:20:50: If you do please

00:20:51: tag me on LinkedIn so i can get your spotlight also to my little LinkedIn profile

00:21:00: For sure!

00:21:03: The whole package is really important.

00:21:05: So if u dont' have much money to spend on YouTube, I would still say create the great video because as I said Viewed by other people, but humans.

00:21:15: So it's always good to have a nice video and also will be retrieved as I said from other LLMs where its maybe more important especially the transcript specifically for ChatGPT if your whole aim is just focus really importantly on the description.

00:21:32: So as I said, use it basically as a landing page where you place in all of your information that you could place and keep in mind that YouTube has also its own algorithm on this zone.

00:21:42: so no keyword stuffings would be also brilliant here.

00:21:46: And can you say anything about production quality?

00:21:50: Because we have when we work with clients they sometimes The first reaction to saying, hey we should create videos for YouTube is yeah but I don't have a production set up and like it costs a load of money blah blah.

00:22:06: So does that actually make difference?

00:22:08: if the video is?

00:22:10: For example a podcast recording like We're doing right now or a loom video where somebody shows something in an interface and just rambles Hopefully with some good information rambits about the topic?

00:22:24: or does it really have to be like a full blown production,

00:22:32: I don't know.

00:22:32: A big budget?

00:22:42: Keep it simple.

00:22:42: Like a podcast like this right now, where you don't need to spend a ton of money at least that's what I think.

00:22:49: like last year You.

00:22:51: It is the best way because your just... The whole idea Is To Share Information About You about A Certain Future That You Have Anything else.

00:23:02: So this is the most relevant part.

00:23:04: everything around it making a nice.

00:23:06: yes It might be nice for your CEO who really like wants to have a shiny product here, but at The end its just regarding their information.

00:23:14: so keep it Keep it easy.

00:23:17: Just record something.

00:23:19: maybe you're like a screen recording also completely enough.

00:23:22: Make it look nicer bit and then we focus on the information that you are sharing.

00:23:28: fun jokes and stuff around it, keep it simple so that's easy to retrieve.

00:23:32: Easy to understand!

00:23:33: And then the information would be also taken for retrieval.

00:23:37: Okay, cool.

00:23:38: Now thanks for the quick rapid fire wrap up.

00:23:42: I think this is helpful maybe also for the better retrieval of information by humans and agents.

00:23:50: Yeah but another thing that i was curious about Is The whole site search aspect because you published some interesting research around, I think especially ChatGPT using the site attribute.

00:24:06: Maybe you can also quickly explain then what the side attribute is more heavily in its query fanouts and something that I cared about or that i'm curious about like how often do you see this happening?

00:24:22: And...I think maybe it's a question that I care even more.

00:24:27: If the query fanouts target a specific domain, do I still have a chance to show up as brand if i'm not this domain or part of these domains?

00:24:42: Do you know anything about

00:24:43: that?".

00:24:44: Yes.

00:24:49: So the whole site operator for everybody who's not an SEO, because the SEOs know about this.

00:24:56: The site operator is something that we used to use in Google, so when you open up your google view You can put into the search bar sites and the site operator And then a certain domain When you do this?

00:25:17: This is like the way how to see what URLs of my domain are basically indexed.

00:25:24: And you can actually also add words and so on into this operator to see if there's a certain URL that is index associated with it.

00:25:34: So let's say I have like site the second breeder for Peec AI, and then place in the word pricing.

00:25:54: They also want just to create a new search engine and they're learning from all the other search engines how their working.

00:26:01: And, I think at least with this idea we specifically target certain domains that retrieve more information because back in days it was like broad search.

00:26:14: Those fan-outs will be used for a broad search, and then all the information within this search would be used to answer.

00:26:21: Now with this operator they can look at certain brands—for example pricing—and really target those brands' domains, look at their pricing, and use these information.

00:26:31: This is like very important to keep in mind that it came actually in place on the new Model-Five point six so early August.

00:26:40: This was something we saw massively earlier, there were also already signs of this.

00:26:45: So early on the term was used in all fan-outs between zero point five and one percent.

00:26:51: so as you hear here it wasn't really relevant.

00:26:55: but somehow they are right.

00:26:57: now The number is up to twenty eight percent.

00:27:00: so twenty-eight percent of all fan-outs have a site operator included.

00:27:05: And how it works?

00:27:05: It's basically We have different layers nowadays.

00:27:10: Back in the days, ChatGPT was usually just doing one fan out.

00:27:13: So based on your question it was summarizing you're question created as a keyword phrase for its own to use.

00:27:21: that first search and this was I said is brought away.

00:27:24: And now they test like several layers.

00:27:26: so we still have the broad search.

00:27:29: let's say i'm looking for running shoes uh...and I've wide feet And so it will look for running shoes, wide feet and within the first layer he'll find different brands.

00:27:41: Based on those brands you do a certain search focusing in these brands to use the site operator To find out some further information regarding those shoes.

00:27:51: So how wide are their shoes?

00:27:53: How pricey they are?

00:27:55: Those are then connected with the site operators.

00:27:58: If the site operator, if it's used can I still sneak in my domain to this?

00:28:03: No.

00:28:04: It is a single no because its already aiming for this.

00:28:08: but i shared yesterday and new research on from my side what we see since last couple of days.

00:28:18: there are URLs or new domains taking into account to the site operator.

00:28:24: So when this whole site operator came in place, there was already a certain list of domains that were always targeted probably because OpenAI has so much information already.

00:28:36: they knew that certain brands are connected through shoes and other things.

00:28:41: Now, they are looking for more information from new domains.

00:28:45: And I can see that the numbers of those new domains actually increasing.

00:28:50: so it's pretty much at a system recalculating other new informations out there.

00:28:56: and then you don't mean that i never have checked previously but should take into account right now.

00:29:01: So It makes really sense to check once again your fanouts if their domain is visible or not.

00:29:11: Maybe you are now also included, perfect match or you see other competitors and it can basically us all back in the days steal their ideas.

00:29:19: Steal what they're doing And try to incorporate this into your strategy as well.

00:29:25: Okay so To also do a little rapid fire round-up here.

00:29:31: ChatGPT is searching more for specific domains And if it searches for a specific domain with the site operator, then you cannot be part of the results because this is like a binary.

00:29:45: If that site operator is used within the main than It only searches for this domain.

00:29:52: but still if these site operators are use they're still at chance That your brand even if its not like in the setup writer, can be mentioned.

00:30:03: So you don't have to basically say this is all very unjust from open AI and I will write Sam a bad email or review!

00:30:18: You still get into response.

00:30:21: so no reason stop doing your optimization work right?

00:30:28: Exactly, so the hidden club that you have no entrance.

00:30:31: Cool and do you see?

00:30:33: because this is also something that I?

00:30:36: Felt in your research.

00:30:38: You are at least it's my impression.

00:30:40: please correct me if i'm wrong.

00:30:41: you're focusing a lot on ChatGPT In Your Research right?

00:30:46: how Is It With Other Models And other Platforms and what is The Reasoning Behind it?

00:30:50: like ChatGPT is the biggest platform, obviously.

00:30:54: The biggest AI native platform so to say?

00:30:56: Is that reason or there just more to uncover?

00:30:59: Is it harder to find these patterns and things from Claude... Just

00:31:07: please

00:31:08: give me a little bit of backstory here.

00:31:11: I'm not just focusing on ChatGPT.

00:31:13: You need to understand that ChatGPT is one of the easiest tools out there, To understand everything.

00:31:19: so we know from a beginning how easy it was to see Fanouts to see anything That this changing within the code Just using The dev tools and It's still really Easy.

00:31:29: So it's Not Really A black Box Under.

00:31:32: the Only Black Box Is Maybe Just The Data That you don't have?

00:31:37: Everything coming from Google is a black box.

00:31:40: So it's really hard to understand what they are doing, of course you can see the fanouts here as well but retrieving the data and understanding that this still like something that was really hard for Claude.

00:31:51: yes its same behavior with ChatGPT.

00:31:56: Then, of course the link linked in brain on my side is like nobody really cares about Claude so much because as you also said first mover effect, ChatGPT's out there everybody's focusing on ChatGPT.

00:32:08: So it makes us more fun to share everything regarding ChatGPT and this itself does change so often that its easy to see all those patterns And thats why theres so much research that we can do one on the Claude side.

00:32:21: There are not many things changing on a frequently based S for ChatGPT

00:32:26: Okay.

00:32:26: And do you think that chatGPT is aware of making it easy for people like you to understand this?

00:32:36: and then in turn they... So, Is It Basically a PR Strategy?

00:32:40: This is my question!

00:32:44: This was good question.

00:32:45: so at least I hope as the PR strategy of them to do this.

00:32:51: otherwise i would be really shocked why?

00:32:54: because As I said, you can see everything.

00:32:56: So before for example the ads came out in ChatGPT You could see within the code how our ad is structured what it will be used using and Everything else.

00:33:07: so you could say well they do have maybe a terrible team on their side not knowing How to hide certain things as Google In the code or The other site could be also like.

00:33:17: They don't care.

00:33:18: they know that people are seeing this And its awesome.

00:33:20: great because Well, people like me share a lot of research on this.

00:33:24: So everybody's focusing on ChatGPT.

00:33:26: so it's awesome for them!

00:33:28: It is really hard to say if they are doing this on purpose or not.

00:33:36: certain things for sure that I am NOT doing on purpose.

00:33:38: but what i can already say was remember when we had those labels within the code where you could see SERP writes and all the other pipelines that we could see back now in the leak datum.

00:33:49: This was there for like two weeks I think, then it was finished.

00:33:53: Stuff like this I would say, oh it was a mistake.

00:33:56: So somebody executed something.

00:33:58: It's visible for everybody.

00:34:00: They were aware of that and tried to go back again To an older version.

00:34:04: But they didn't calculate with their whole research audience out there.

00:34:08: Who just did twenty four hours nothing else Then receiving all the information to do some calculation.

00:34:14: So stuff like when you see your pattern And its not here anymore then For sure they don't want to share the information but other things fanouts, I believe they will stay there forever because basically also don't care.

00:34:28: For them it's like what would you do with the fans?

00:34:31: for us?

00:34:31: It is a gold mine as we can see so many patterns in here.

00:34:36: And do you still feel like, because this is a question that I get quite often now by ChatGPT.

00:34:42: We obviously have quite a lot of transparency due to all the research that your publishing?

00:34:48: For example and Obviously the good OpenAI PR strategy But do use it's.

00:34:55: how different are the mechanisms for the different interfaces Like How Different Is Claude really to ChatGPT?

00:35:02: how different is AI Overviews to ChatGPT?

00:35:05: he and I know just too.

00:35:08: Spare that part maybe, but behind the scenes obviously they're different.

00:35:15: so factually different tools.

00:35:17: working like Claude uses the Brave web search at least I think it's still the case

00:35:21: etc.,

00:35:23: Like how different can search really be?

00:35:25: this is what I'm curious about because people often approach me with hey Do we do?

00:35:30: We need completely different strategies for AI Overviews, AI Mode, ChatGPT and Claude And then also maybe for enterprise companies for Copilot.

00:35:39: What would you say to that?

00:35:41: actually yes Do this mind game which on your own right now if he asks ten people To search for something for something be simple And everybody has their own preferred tools that they are looking at.

00:35:55: Some of them you're looking at Reddit, some of them I using like Instagram for getting information and this is the same with all those different LLMs.

00:36:04: All Of Them Are Using Different Sources.

00:36:06: Google Is Using The Whole.

00:36:07: Google Universe Of Course can scrape, sometimes I'm not allowed to scrape.

00:36:13: Google Universe need to go to Brave to Bing and once you are on the site do get also different results.

00:36:20: You got all so different information And this is like really what we see right now.

00:36:25: So of course using or waiting a difference sources differently completely different.

00:36:33: So for broader thing, of course if I asked like what is the main city of Paris or France everybody will say that there's no web search included but as soon you start to do a web search information could be completely different and this just like waiting behind scenes.

00:36:52: so yeah You need to have two different strategies AI too, I would say because most of the people are just focusing on ChatGPT.

00:37:05: You don't need to use a strategy that is only working for Claude or DeepSeek.

00:37:11: DeepSeek's also something completely different.

00:37:13: So my main goal will be here.

00:37:15: if you have something like those UGC platforms That you see like Reddit Don't go with the hype so we won't focus anymore.

00:37:25: Keep in mind there were several different engines Back in the days with SEO, everybody was just doing SEO on Google.

00:37:33: Nobody cared about being Yahoo!

00:37:35: Yandex and so on but there were still specific brands that really focused on this because they got more traffic from Yandex – from

00:37:43: Yahoo!,

00:37:43: So you need to have experts who understand how is this engine working?

00:37:48: And what do we need to do differently?

00:37:49: This is a same story here right now as well.

00:37:59: adjust or do little tweaks on their GEO, AI search strategies based on new research that's coming out.

00:38:10: So if for example I see you posting something because a lot of people listening to this feel overwhelmed by the amount of new information thrown at them every day.

00:38:28: Would you say that it makes sense to change stuff with every new release and everything, or how could people differentiate signal from noise?

00:38:40: Or what's your mental model also.

00:38:43: My mental models are overloaded as always full of information.

00:38:50: I would again compare this to SEO back in the day.

00:38:55: so whenever a core update came up And the worst part you could ever do was like whenever a core update is there, I need to change my whole strategy.

00:39:04: This was never something you should actually keep up your strategy.

00:39:08: as long as you believe and have this strategy i think it's just the first layer.

00:39:12: You need to have a strategy.

00:39:13: so Reddit is not a strategy for AI or YouTube also has another strategy.

00:39:18: Need to understand what how its retrieved?

00:39:22: So understanding search everywhere every information out there can be used, this is something you need to understand.

00:39:29: What we are sharing sometimes is giving more a hint towards how those systems that working so people do have better understanding.

00:39:38: Do I need to adjust my strategy because previously i was just focusing on Reddit as said and now somebody posted it's actually everything else.

00:39:48: well So its like in different layer inclusion into your strategy But don't change your strategy after every post.

00:39:56: People post everyday something, so I wouldn't change everything in that strategy.

00:39:59: and also this is not a strategy.

00:40:01: if you'll change ever similar daily base then You don't have a strategy at all.

00:40:05: the best strategies.

00:40:06: If you stick to Something And test it At least for six months see if It's working and learning from Your own mistakes.

00:40:13: So This Is Also like what we are always Doing Like Learning What is Working?

00:40:16: What is Not Working and doing another round of this.

00:40:18: so i would say Definitely need to do is like check if there's something completely new for you.

00:40:25: So, um... Something that we're never aware of Like certain platforms are retrieved Certain ways how images or videos are received.

00:40:35: This could change your strategy Of course But If somebody saying all of a sudden Oh I see a peak in governmental domains That they now retrieve Your strategy shouldn't be.

00:40:45: You have to have connection with the governmental domain To get product layer on this Mm-hmm, and

00:40:53: what would you maybe on that note again?

00:40:57: What would you generally say if people are just getting started for example with on their geo Journey?

00:41:05: because I feel like a lot of people might They.

00:41:08: they might have been doing something for SEO obviously but they didn't Put dedicated focus on AI search or do.

00:41:16: Oh, what would she's saying also based on your overloaded mental model.

00:41:23: No, just kidding based on your enormous context knowledge that you have about this whole space the how these platforms really work what would you say?

00:41:32: Would be like three best ways to start or what should things focus?

00:41:41: first if people want to put dedicated focus

00:41:47: The first thing you already said is like stick with your SEO team and what they are doing.

00:41:52: So make your domain visible, make it retrievable.

00:41:56: place all the information in there that you want to get retrieved.

00:41:59: as I said There's a site operator for ChatGPT in use so They're actually looking at their own domain as well.

00:42:05: It's not just everybody else but your domain.

00:42:08: A second, figure out where people are actually talking about you.

00:42:13: So I understand where they're talking about.

00:42:15: is this like a review platform?

00:42:17: Is there different platforms?

00:42:20: talk about you and your brand, the visible there.

00:42:24: And if there is a lot of negative way talking about it try to change this not aggressively but over time.

00:42:32: try be more like part community share stuff with them.

00:42:36: The third layer would figure out where your competitor are actually visible.

00:42:41: You can do this with tools like Peec AI where you just look at the citations, then the domains and see whether there's a certain gap.

00:42:51: Where your competitors are mentioned And you unlock mentions so comparison portals Newspapers and so on Then try to find out of way to sneak in somehow through PR campaigns With normal PR ways are different ways to be really part of a discussion.

00:43:07: I would say this is like the difference, and I'd say oh you just care about how look-like?

00:43:12: How your domain is retrieved?

00:43:14: How information's

00:43:14: there?".

00:43:15: And in AI we really care what people talk about you... ...how visible your brand or product is.. ..and where well received everything is!

00:43:24: Of course if the information that it out here also still through because some other information might be For a long time, out of date they are not true anymore.

00:43:33: So make it also visible.

00:43:35: so be part the internet at the end.

00:43:38: That's one of the biggest advisable gifts

00:43:41: I like that quote Be Part Of The Internet.

00:43:45: This is good.

00:43:48: It´s not Neuland any more.

00:43:50: this joke only Germans will understand.

00:43:53: Okay cool David, we already covered quite a lot of stuff but I know maybe you have something in mind that we should talk about.

00:44:04: That we haven't talked about.

00:44:05: and as probably frequent listener for this podcast... You know it's always my question!

00:44:12: So what didn't we talk about?

00:44:14: We should've talked about.

00:44:16: And one thing i said at the beginning regarding ChatGPT deep research.

00:44:20: so.. One key finding here was that ChatGPT is reading your a landing page which we know about this, so it's retrieving the information.

00:44:29: What is new or what was knew?

00:44:31: It looks for specific words and tries to find them on your landing page.

00:44:36: just get a snippet of these.

00:44:38: So let say again pricing will look forward.

00:44:41: pricing in your content.

00:44:46: Why am I saying this?

00:44:47: Because right now with the new default version six, so that was yesterday announcement.

00:44:52: That know in a UI their model is switched from five point six to six.

00:44:57: So we just jumped four positions and we do see all of a sudden This pattern Just exploding.

00:45:03: So ChatGPT is reading like a human being sort of say your domain or your landing pages Right Now And it makes sense.

00:45:11: So make sure that everything is in your HTML text, not a JavaScript or something like this.

00:45:17: This ensures what we couldn't cover right now but which should come up the next time.

00:45:21: Okay so cool I think We will probably have you on at least once more based On the amount of stuff You're putting out.

00:45:29: i can highly recommend to anyone That wants To see More.

00:45:36: hear more about what David is spending his whole day with on LinkedIn.

00:45:44: We'll put the link to your profile in.

00:45:56: So so cool.

00:45:57: Thanks so much, David for making the time.

00:45:59: I guess you have to jump right back into GPT six research and Curious to see if he will still put something out today or maybe tomorrow.

00:46:12: And yeah thanks so much for all your great insights.

00:46:17: So having me and see you soon at the conference

00:46:19: Yes, use another conference looking forward it bye-bye.