From Banning AI Bots to the Most-Cited Source | Marvin Müller, VP @ OMR Reviews

00:00:00: German decision makers.

00:00:02: They want to see local content when they check for software that they don't wanna see.

00:00:06: okay what is some person in the US writing about this software?

00:00:10: overall, The trend is really clear that off-site signals and off-side authority at trust signals are super important When you want to be successful an AI search.

00:00:21: do

00:00:21: remember the days when a I overview started to roll out in Germany?

00:00:27: And he saw that Traffic is either flat or declining.

00:00:31: How did that feel?

00:00:32: We were at the beginning, I would say for sure in a little bit of panic mode.

00:00:37: What are we doing now when this part of our business That it's so important to us Is shrinking a little

00:00:43: before we dive In?

00:00:45: you're listening To The Masters Of Search podcast with me your host Niklas Buschner.

00:00:50: Each week i sit down With some of these smartest people around the world and SEO And AI search to bring You their strategies mental models and top pieces of actionable advice.

00:01:00: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to like and subscribe.

00:01:04: then follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

00:01:07: It helps us get top-notch guests And create the best possible content for you.

00:01:11: Let's dive into todays episode.

00:01:13: My guest Today is Marvin Müller.

00:01:16: He´s VP Marketing at OMR Reviews The biggest software review platform In the DACH region.

00:01:22: For everybody that has never heard of DACH, it's Germany, Austria and Switzerland, but here in Europe we call it DACH.

00:01:31: He joined as the first marketing hire in twenty-twenty one when the platform had around four K reviews on it And today its past eighty five thousand.

00:01:40: so curious to see When they will reach a hundred K. OMR Reviews is in a very interesting position.

00:01:46: They grew A lot with SEO But when AI overviews started To roll out they lost quite a Lot of their clicks.

00:01:54: Now after the dust settled sort of they are one of the most cited sources when an AI answers a software question.

00:02:02: So all's well.

00:02:03: that ends.

00:02:04: Well, we'll find out today.

00:02:07: Very happy to have Marvin on the podcast.

00:02:08: and one quick note before we start into the conversation.

00:02:12: We have the great honor to have OMR Reviews as a partner for our conference, the Masters of Search Conference we are hosting on October.

00:02:21: twenty-second twenty-twenty six here in Berlin.

00:02:25: It will be a hand curated list of attendees around one hundred seventy five maybe you few more.

00:02:32: let's see how much the location Will allow us.

00:02:35: but we will Have A lot Of Great Talks from People like Malte Landwehr Aleyda Solis.

00:02:40: We have workshops from people like Margus Veeber, head of web at Pipedrive.

00:02:45: People from Peec AI and Marvin will actually also have a keynote there which is so cool.

00:02:50: I'm looking forward to it!

00:02:52: So if you haven't made any plans yet for October twenty second come to Berlin.

00:02:58: If your not in Berlin yet get the ticket.

00:03:00: we still have few tickets left.

00:03:02: And yeah, put the link into the description.

00:03:05: but now enough with intro.

00:03:07: welcome to the podcast Marvin.

00:03:09: Thank you, Niklas.

00:03:10: And thank you so much for having me.

00:03:11: I'm super excited to be on your show today.

00:03:14: Yeah So cool to have you.

00:03:15: i think people from the OMR world always has such a positive vibe and are also sharing with knowledge.

00:03:25: It's very much appreciated.

00:03:28: Let start everybody that may not know yet A little bit about back story.

00:03:34: How did end up at OMR Reviews?

00:03:37: It's actually a fun story.

00:03:38: I don't think i've ever told this in English before, but... ...I started my career at Google and Ireland after university as marketing strategist.

00:03:48: so the idea was to learn more about marketing find out different business models.

00:03:54: basically And that is where you are in the ZR space or search advertising space.

00:04:00: There got know lot of different business model.

00:04:04: I had the pleasure to advise from e-commerce, platforms and media publishers through lead generation business models.

00:04:14: That was actually fun.

00:04:15: learning very much.

00:04:18: learnful is that word?

00:04:19: No i learned a lot there but... Insightful!

00:04:25: But then the corona pandemic came And that was for me the chance to, first of all travel built because then decided I don't want to spend a corona pandemic in Ireland where it's rainy all the time and i'm not allowed to go outside.

00:04:42: So um...I've been traveling around Europe quite a bit.

00:04:46: I visited my sister in Italy Then went to Greece, to Malta.

00:04:50: did some diving there In this period reflected a little bit on what I want to do and not want.

00:05:00: For me, then came the decision point even though Google is great employer you've got lots of cool benefits.

00:05:09: it's time for me really focus on known projects.

00:05:13: there was also times where thought about maybe i should found something or join project that am excited about.

00:05:25: It was probably the same time when I heard in the OMR podcast for the non-German speakers.

00:05:31: This is probably the biggest German speaking business podcast there is of OMR founder, Philipp Westermeyer.

00:05:39: He then at one point told him his podcasts that they're having a new project and their starting a new product.

00:05:45: it's called OMR Reviews And its software review platform for the german speaking markets.

00:05:51: That sounds actually quite cool because I have the background in search, I've had a background in advising media companies as well as lead generation business models and actually fits quite.

00:06:01: Well why don't i just shoot attacks to filibuster my own Instagram not hoping for any reply basically?

00:06:08: And that just did!

00:06:08: I was like okay what's the worst thing that can

00:06:10: happen?!

00:06:11: Just text him.

00:06:12: at that time he already...I don't know..at thirty thousand followers or so.

00:06:16: So I thought ok there is another chance im ever gonna get a reply from him.

00:06:20: But then after fifteen minutes or so I received the text.

00:06:23: It was like, yeah actually your profile sounds interesting.

00:06:26: please go and talk to Owe.

00:06:28: And then Uwe together with Felix Rahlmeyer The ones that started the OMR Reviews project in-house.

00:06:39: Then i got to know them.

00:06:41: They invited me come to Hamburg put up a big show for me.

00:06:46: So I was invited in the Hotel Vier Jahreszeiten, which is like a grand hotel for two nights and it was invited to the office to get to know all the people there are from Isar Gard who's the CMO of OMR... ...to all other people from the team.. And in the end even Philipp Westermeyer showed up!

00:07:05: When we then sat together afterwards on a tapas bar that is quite just right across the office And had some some wines together.

00:07:14: I thought okay that feels right That sounds interesting to me and i want to join this project, and then i started as the first marketer at OMR Reviews.

00:07:23: So cool before we dive into OMR Reviews more can you give?

00:07:26: Me a little sense of how it is to work in In Dublin because i feel like there's this big a hub of tech companies with Google and Meta, LinkedIn and Salesforce.

00:07:42: So what's the vibe like there?

00:07:45: Yeah that is very good question.

00:07:47: I think it perfect for people who don't want to give up university yet because you come into those international office spaces all the young people working for the tech companies that are all coming straight from university.

00:08:05: And, and for me I was one of those people...I didn't want to do a master's degree but i still felt like okay also don't wanna leave uni quite yet!

00:08:17: Then at that gift gave perfect place there.

00:08:21: so lot of young people lots of fun.

00:08:23: you do alot stuff afterwards you do sports..you go to pubs obviously And yeah, that felt pretty cool.

00:08:31: That's also the reason why all those benefits kind of went away during the pandemic because then it was just Dublin which is a beautiful city but not so great when you are forced to stay inside and force to enjoy all the benefits.

00:08:52: So there for me was the right time.

00:08:54: Then looks

00:08:55: like let's look a little bit at your first moves and home reviews.

00:08:59: I remember i don't know exactly which year it was that someone from the OMR Reviews team reached out to me already then running an agency obviously, yeah?

00:09:12: And they had this idea how i could contribute to OMR Reviews in a felt like.

00:09:17: also when i reflect on this now did you have pretty smart SEO strategy back then?

00:09:22: so my question is Who came up with that strategy?

00:09:25: was that you or and can you tell the audience a little bit about what she did there.

00:09:32: So no, that strategy didn't come out for me.

00:09:34: I think it was Katarina Eken or Andreas Schmunk who came up this idea.

00:09:42: but at the time i was like okay this quite genius let's do it.

00:09:46: so at the beginning of starting to platform we also talked a lot off you know two SEO specialists, for example Kevin Indig by that time already a big name in SEO when he advised us all so little bit because.

00:10:00: If u if u believe it or not we didn't have one SEO specialist uh... at the time at OMR Reviews.

00:10:09: so everything we did there was basically self learning.

00:10:11: i'm learning under job from from mandi who was giving the... No, how do you say it?

00:10:21: He got a special kind of incentivization.

00:10:25: So for every zero point one jump in the Sistrix Visibility Index.

00:10:30: by then he was forced into early days to drink small Jägermeister.

00:10:35: and so that's what we had back there now different but quite fun with this idea that we reach a level where we cannot produce more.

00:10:54: articles in-house because when we start the platform, it was a lot about okay.

00:10:59: We need to create top of funnel content with a funnel uh content To basically get that traffic on the platform.

00:11:04: That then goes back to the profiles to the listicles and so on.

00:11:08: but we needed to get the traffic first.

00:11:10: So we need to um write a lot About you know?

00:11:12: Um top off funnel content how to do something?

00:11:15: what's best for?

00:11:17: I don't know What are strategies for xyz?

00:11:20: And he realized that probably produce two to four articles per week with two people in-house or we reach out this huge network of experts that are in the OMR atmosphere and in the OMR ecosystem anyway.

00:11:41: And just ask them, hey do you want to write an article on your favorite topic?

00:11:46: On omr.com which by then already had a really strong domain authority.

00:11:51: So for them it was basically, of course I want to do this because you know be seen as an expert if i'm getting the chance to write for OMR.com and first there's a chance to basically write less own articles.

00:12:06: but that is not a problem Because we are now experts in every field.

00:12:09: It actually has been win situation If really let people who are experts on their fields from the OMR ecosystem Write articles about stuff they're good at And so go from four articles per week to maybe two that are written in-house, but eight data coming from the ecosystem.

00:12:26: So basically getting from two or ten articles a week to scale up content – not just content because this is really good content right?

00:12:38: Because they have people who really have expertise on writing these contents and it helps us to scale quite a lot of content production

00:12:47: I feel like.

00:12:47: for me back then, it was also the OMR brand where felt like yeah okay of course i want to be associated with OMR and publishing something under my name on the OMR domain is something that we are proud of.

00:13:03: And when we got a backlink for example... ...I think it was beneficial for our Domain Authority.

00:13:09: What would you say?

00:13:10: Because.. The concept of a review platform wasn't YOU when you started it So there were the other ones.

00:13:17: We don't want to name them now International players, but what would you say?

00:13:23: How much was the contribution of the OMR brand to make this Project kick off the way we're able to kick it off and also making the success that is now?

00:13:35: yeah I said this a couple of times and i will say again on a green field it would have never been possible to kick off the project with this ambition because basically you live from authority, trust and network.

00:13:56: All those things are attributes that OMR had already in place.

00:14:02: so we see Quite actually quite often that people are now with AI trying to build another software directory and we even get sometimes offers.

00:14:11: So I have built this, you should buy it now for one million dollars otherwise You've got a problem in the year.

00:14:19: You should learn a little bit more about this business model and what really counts in the end.

00:14:23: so we are quite relaxed on that point.

00:14:26: But, We really saw the opportunity there when we focus on the DACH market because back in days There was situation at international markets were already crowded by G2 and Capterra.

00:14:42: You said you don't want to name them but I will name them for sure because they are really doing a great job and they're really really doing cool stuff!

00:14:50: But um... They were not really active on the German speaking markets And we really saw chance there.

00:14:57: Because also.. German decision makers ...they want to see local content as well.

00:15:04: So what do wanna when they check for software, that they don't want to see?

00:15:08: okay what is some person in the US or someone in India writing about this software.

00:15:16: Also because local software stack kind of different from American ones.

00:15:21: we have very good local solutions here and really cool.

00:15:25: local software players are under represented on English speaking markets And German decision makers also.

00:15:32: other stuff that is important, like for example local GDPR compliance where a server's located.

00:15:41: Does it integrate with SAP or DATEV?

00:15:43: So things Probably not top of mind for American software vendors when they list the software, but here in Germany very important things and very important attributes that we can cover by being local.

00:16:00: And having local reviews because you also want to get their trust from comparable people that have written a review platform.

00:16:09: When you're an media agency of around twenty people, You want to know what other media agencies of twenty people in Germany are using and why they use it?

00:16:20: And if the solution might benefit me... The other thing was That there's also an OMR reaction to the corona pandemic because definitely we were at the very difficult time as a company because we also had to think about how can we still employ people when the OMR festival, so biggest and most revenue strong product of OMR cannot take place for two years.

00:17:00: And how do we keep software vendors connected to us?

00:17:02: Because back then and still today, software vendors make around fifty percent of the clients at the OMR festival as well.

00:17:10: We thought about okay... How can we basically connect them with a new product that does what software seekers do on a festival namely going out, checking our software when you're seeing what other people are talking about them.

00:17:30: Talk to peers about them!

00:17:32: This is stuff that happens offline at the OMR Festival and we wanted create a space in the digital world where this was more or less also possible And We were not a fan of doing digital fairs Where You walk around with weird avatars... In The end it's basically reviews because Connecting the vendors is talking about them.

00:17:53: It's getting it's getting connected with them.

00:17:56: So besides all of the bad that Resulted out of the COVID pandemic at least here also.

00:18:03: for you, it was a driving force Of innovation and that's obviously something that worked out quite well.

00:18:09: now You had this great brand Obviously behind you And amongst a lot of other things, pretty smart marketing strategies for example the SEO strategy we talked about.

00:18:22: What would you say before the whole AI overviews and AI search phase or era basically started?

00:18:31: How important was Search or was SEO to the platform?

00:18:37: The single most important?

00:18:41: I would even say, okay, SEO back then was kind of our internal religion.

00:18:45: We were really like praying to the SEO god for every one point.

00:18:49: zero jump in a visibility index.

00:18:52: so yeah because basically we said if you want to get relevance... ...we need to acquire lot of traffic.

00:18:58: with traffic comes reviews come more vendors comes more users And so we focused a lot on doing everything that we could in order to be strong and search.

00:19:09: We even decided at the beginning, we wanted to kick off OMR Reviews and also invested quite a bunch of money in search engine advertising.

00:19:18: So paying to Google but then at one point really switched just strategy instead okay?

00:19:24: The resources that we invest there...we want to invest organic content.

00:19:31: so basically getting more zero strategists on board, getting more journalists onboard.

00:19:39: that right content for us.

00:19:41: So really full focus and organic content to make the platform bigger!

00:19:49: And do you remember those days when AI overviews started rolling out in Germany?

00:19:57: Maybe you looked at the search console or someone on the team.

00:19:59: Looked that the Search Console, or in some dashboards and You saw that traffic is either flat or declining?

00:20:06: And then It kept declining.

00:20:09: how did That feel like?

00:20:10: do you remember maybe a particular moment also where you had discussion with The Team Like what's going On?

00:20:16: yeah Yeah um There are two moments.

00:20:20: The first one is that ChatGPT moment where we thought, okay there's something along the way... ...that could definitely play a role in the future but even bigger ones.

00:20:33: you said Google launching AI overviews.

00:20:37: basically from day to night The crocodile mouth opened, so we saw on our impressions and visibility.

00:20:45: We're still growing today!

00:20:48: It's an all-time high when it comes to our visibility but the clicks that are resulting from them getting lower And at the beginning I would say for sure in a little bit of panic mode.

00:21:03: So what are you doing now?

00:21:05: When this part is important is shrinking a little bit.

00:21:11: And that even led to reactions, we at the beginning forced crawlers of LLMs out our system so were really blocking them because said okay want protect content and reviews worked hard basically on platform.

00:21:36: The first panic reaction, but it was also the time where then I learned a lot more about all this geo stuff and AI search that was coming up.

00:21:52: So how is this actually working?

00:21:54: How could we benefit from

00:21:55: that?".

00:21:55: And there's always software tracking tools like Peec AI, Otterly, RankScale and so come up.

00:22:03: And I will decide okay...I should probably talk to them and see how big our influence is there?

00:22:10: How often does the site actually get cited when people are asking for software related

00:22:17: queries?".

00:22:19: And i was quite surprised back then but positively surprised that our content is cited very, very often.

00:22:28: We're on the number one first-sided source for many software categories when people are searching what's the best CRM tool or project management tool and then our content comes up really strong.

00:22:44: as I said there's a chance because this channel currently coming up nobody understands it.

00:22:51: we can be at the forefront Also go out and educate the market, especially software vendors that AI search is getting more important.

00:23:01: And smart ways to work with this channel.

00:23:04: One smart way of working on this channel... I mean we did a study around there also focusing on third-party platforms or media platforms in order to strengthen your position at AI Search.

00:23:21: Not to get all the visibility, because we are not a channel that you turn on and then say in our next day.

00:23:25: You're suddenly visible?

00:23:27: That's...that's not how it works but is really important factor plays an role in your overall visibility in AI search.

00:23:37: Yeah, on that note also to the study we will link it in the description and you can also search for it.

00:23:43: if You go to Google and say OMR Reviews Radyant software study or Something like which sources do LLMs site?

00:23:54: For software queries.

00:23:56: And We actually ran around twenty thousand chats across five models an eight software categories.

00:24:03: Obviously you could also make this bigger and I'm Spoilering a little bit.

00:24:07: We're working in the background on a new research project where we might Try to bring this honor like ten X scale, but let's see.

00:24:18: But as Marvin rightfully said OMR Reviews is actually the number one cited single source across All eight thousand something domains analyzed ahead of YouTube ahead of Reddit.

00:24:33: At that point also there was not GPT-5.6 already rolled out.

00:24:39: That has now changed a little bit with how Reddit is treated and I would say lack of transparency... Is Reddit really not relevant anymore?

00:24:48: Or just not shown?

00:24:50: so ChatGPT prevents the manipulation of Reddit

00:24:54: etc.?

00:24:55: Don't want to get into too much details on that But it's absolutely correct.

00:25:01: OMR Reviews is, especially for German speaking, we did German-speaking prompts here but I would say probably in the German market even if you ask in English You will also have a very strong position.

00:25:22: all sorts of queries for eight different categories.

00:25:26: Not just marketing related, also super technical and we're really proud now.

00:25:32: We had IT service management HR software project management collaboration internet CRM SEO tools time tracking email marketing And it was very interesting.

00:25:41: so you can check out the study in the link description or search for it.

00:25:45: OMR Reviews Radyant Software Study.

00:25:47: You should find on Google or ChatGPT But maybe let's go to that moment again or a little bit fast forward the timeline between panic mode, which is I think absolutely understandable.

00:26:01: A lot of people had this Or may be still have this if they are not like Jumping on the AI search train already and then you block the crawlers And what was the?

00:26:12: What was the moment when you decided okay This is probably not The right long-term strategy to block the crawlers into?

00:26:18: basically create a create a walled garden?

00:26:21: I

00:26:23: think there wasn't then a single moment where we decided that, but it came from basically also me.

00:26:31: But other parts of the leadership team as well are really diving deep in all this AI search stuff and learning about this.

00:26:40: I talked to Thomas from Otterly.

00:26:48: I talk to you and the more learned about this, the more realized.

00:26:53: wait a minute!

00:26:53: This is not channel that's going away.

00:26:56: Significant parts of software research phase are there probably coming back because now it works.

00:27:04: You don't want search in Google and click on hundred links.

00:27:08: get your information basically extracted on your own to get all the information that you need, but go into AI chatbots because it's so much more convenient.

00:27:20: just check out there and say who are.

00:27:23: Say what use cases do have?

00:27:25: What are your limitations or features important for them?

00:27:29: Just go right in context.

00:27:33: then already get a short list figured-out from an AI chatbot.

00:27:41: And this is exactly where content of OMR Reviews are strong, especially in creating the first shortlist stage for the software research process.

00:27:52: Because it's also where software vendors want to be if somebody asks me what kind of solution I need and I just don't know which vendor they're there that I want to check out more in-depth.

00:28:11: This is exactly where you wanna be because this is exactly were pipeline gets created and their opportunity get's.

00:28:17: create it, And these are the review platforms especially we German speaking markets very strong by realising that.

00:28:25: i said wait a minute.

00:28:27: its stupid idea.

00:28:29: block those crawlers from visiting our site because they want to go there, because they find neutral information.

00:28:38: They're defined in formation that not a software vendors writes about himself but also what users are writing about the tool and this is also how the lists get built.

00:28:48: How you know?

00:28:50: Our list that we were doing.

00:28:53: We're Doing Also A lot of Listicles In Every Software Categories And This Is Especially Also Very Very attractive link source for AI chatbot, but they are based on user reviews.

00:29:07: So basically no fake faking around this.

00:29:10: if more users find one tool good This tool lands on number one.

00:29:16: and because this is such a cool And relevant and trustworthy information to basically get Get the information as an LLM bot from.

00:29:28: it's really, really stupid idea to block those from visiting our pages.

00:29:33: Now given how your AI search journey started basically?

00:29:37: It started with this frightening moment of AI overview rollout.

00:29:45: where are you now?

00:29:47: so is demand for or reviews still the same as it was back then when you already had a good position Increased because of your new relevancy given the whole AI search citations that you have.

00:30:02: I think i know, The answer already but i'm still curious to hear.

00:30:06: Then i'm curious take a guess.

00:30:08: Yeah so my guess would be That A lot Of people Especially in the software companies Have understood this is a significant shift In user behavior and alot People are turning to ChatGPT, Claude etc.

00:30:23: And then they're If they made the realization that the answer there is not just completely random, but it's in a lot of cases grounded on web search and you can check the citations.

00:30:35: And then smart people like you are able to tell these people hey look Oh my reviews is a very relevant citation.

00:30:42: So if you're visible on our platform, If we invest in your profile or now platform?

00:30:46: If you invest and genuine user reviews etc.

00:30:49: It will not only give you authority and all this stuff it has already given You pre AI search but now its also giving you This front door entry to being part of the AI search response.

00:31:01: that would be My guess.

00:31:02: so I think demand for Your platform has probably spiked.

00:31:07: Exactly right.

00:31:10: Just as you said, I think we had a very difficult twenty-twenty four but since last year and this year were growing faster than ever where the platform are going towards ten million in revenue which is quite amazing because it's really significant part of OMR by now from starting us a little corona site project five years ago.

00:31:35: And as you said, demand is growing.

00:31:39: We also invest a lot in thought leadership doing webinars for example with you being active on LinkedIn and really trying to put out the word of AI search and really try to help understand this whole new marketing discipline where there's big black box stills by every day.

00:31:58: we're learning much more And we're trying to really do this and share knowledge, share insights around us.

00:32:08: By doing so... We are getting more demand than ever.

00:32:12: because as you said back then I think trust in authority is now with LLMs even more important Because they even stronger than Google.

00:32:27: I'm now also looking into trust signals.

00:32:29: They're really checking out what users are saying in the open web.

00:32:33: It's not just important What you do on site with your own content and how you structure that The influence of everything that happens off-site.

00:32:42: So, what media writes about?

00:32:44: You want user say on review platform but also would use us a unread it.

00:32:49: i mean Of course different from chatbot to chatbot How this is weighted.

00:32:53: But Overall, the trend is really clear that off-site signals and off-side authority trust signals are super important when you want to be successful in AI search.

00:33:06: And this is exactly where we sit with our solution.

00:33:09: We stand for trust, we stand for user reviews That are verified by us.

00:33:17: So we create basically this trust layer in between the user and a software vendor that uses AI search To get to the right software solution.

00:33:27: Hmm, I want to play not really devil's advocate but it little bit like the critical interviewer here.

00:33:37: so Previously in the SEO era so-to say you had Google a little bit as your middleman And also other platforms had Google as the middleman.

00:33:48: For example, let's say Amazon and these platforms have historically always tried to cut out the middle man.

00:33:54: so Amazon has tried To get people to start their search on amazon if they want to buy some products.

00:34:03: Now OMR Reviews obviously very successfully made a shift from Google being the middleman to ChatGPT and I think it also is a testament.

00:34:19: A great platform with a lot of value will win in whatever ecosystem, but that set aside now i'm wondering do you also thing about like can we start uh, getting users to start their software journey or building their shortlist right on OMR Reviews.

00:34:40: So not going to ChatGPT having OMR Reviews cited great good job.

00:34:46: but so they type omr.com/reviews I think is the right domain?

00:34:52: They type that into there a browser bar instead of typing ChatGPT or Claude how do you think about that?

00:35:00: um for sure has always been important.

00:35:04: It also was a question that we already asked ourselves in.

00:35:07: Two thousand twenty one and two thousand twenty-two, when we decided to go big on our organic search it Was always the question okay but how can We make the user experience as good That The next time users navigate straight to OMR Reviews And not just and Not do the Go to middle way via Google or Via chatbot?

00:35:32: This is still A Question.

00:35:34: We, of course tried to make the user experience on our platform better.

00:35:39: For example we introduced an AI buying assistant kind of like a chatbot that is taking his knowledge from all the information available in OMR Reviews.

00:35:52: so the user reviews and content are there basically more focused large language model behind this than when you go into open web And we think this could be a really cool way for users that are in the DACH region to chat directly with a chatbot, that learns from content and learn reviews.

00:36:14: That also having these country contexts so basically much more focused than general LLM.

00:36:23: but our path there is going two ways For sure trying still gain the traction and gained a visibility in LLMs, but also when people are coming to our platform that they use our platform.

00:36:41: And we see for example I think many vendors see this People that are coming from an LLM chat, but they spend significantly more time and visit significantly more pages on OMR Reviews than the ones.

00:36:58: That you know when went to a platform.

00:37:01: um From any other way.

00:37:04: We talked about a lot of great aspects off LLMs And I search where your really benefited.

00:37:09: i would say one maybe potential downside is also that llms make it very easy for people To write convincing fake reviews And also write them at scale and somehow try to manipulate, because always historically every platform that does rankings.

00:37:26: Every platforms has influence.

00:37:28: people tried to manipulate it.

00:37:30: I mean if we have a bad mood on the day We will maybe say SEO is manipulating the algorithm.

00:37:38: Obviously no!

00:37:39: We would provide value for you.

00:37:43: How do you try to protect the platform against that influence, which can obviously harm your standing significantly?

00:37:51: Yeah for sure.

00:37:53: We had a lot of cases where people tried to circumvent our defense mechanics in order to write a lot fake reviews and profit from some incentive vendors sometimes give in order to gain reviews on the platform.

00:38:14: A number that I brought with me is twenty-five percent, and only twenty five per cent of our reviews are started actually makes it onto the platform because we filter out a lot of stuff that we think okay wait a minute there's something some something isn't checking here and we do this mechanically.

00:38:41: but as well there's always a human in the loop.

00:38:46: So when a review comes onto OMR Reviews, first thing that you did is filter at the beginning because to write an OMR review you have, for example,, sign in with your LinkedIn account or sign-in with a business email address.

00:39:02: So basically give us away to check.

00:39:04: okay is there really person behind this that are... That it's also somehow findable online right?

00:39:13: There we can say Okay This is the person who exists and writing review but then look into sickness on what this person is writing.

00:39:24: and we have mechanics in place on our platform.

00:39:26: that gives us a score.

00:39:28: So by how much chance is there, this somehow not valid?

00:39:36: And it give you the score from zero to one hundred percent!

00:39:38: Everything above.

00:39:40: I would say... Not quite sure about this but i think its also twenty five percent.

00:39:45: everything has scored above.

00:39:46: twenty-five percent gets blocked A feedback to the user.

00:39:53: Hey, we're not quite sure.

00:39:57: if you really use this software can you please send us a screenshot of you logged in for example In this platform in order to make sure okay?

00:40:06: This is really users writing about The Software and then We also check in again manually.

00:40:14: So Christine from our team, she's our head of reviews.

00:40:20: So basically you really had up.

00:40:21: the user generated content and it comes onto a platform.

00:40:25: in the end She is checking every single review that makes us into pre-selection In order to make it on the platform again.

00:40:35: checks it sees okay.

00:40:36: Is there a real person behind it?

00:40:38: Does this look like valid content, does that show signs of typical AI chatbots sentence structures?

00:40:50: and if we say okay check only then it gets onto the platform.

00:40:54: And as I said the rate is twenty five percent.

00:40:58: Okay sounds pretty sophisticated.

00:41:01: so i would actually uh if you listen to this don't try to fake your way up to a good rating.

00:41:08: um but speaking of i'm curious.

00:41:12: so I think a lot of people sometimes think about review platforms like OMR Reviews as being expensive.

00:41:21: So they have to buy a certain package or something to start having a profile there.

00:41:28: I know you that this is a common misbelief, but can you maybe give for people who are interested and have not yet created the review profile or done anything in that sense.

00:41:41: Can you may be giving them your top two-three actions on what should software vendor do if they want to benefit from OMR Reviews' gains in LLMs?

00:41:57: Yeah,

00:41:57: for sure.

00:41:59: The first thing if you don't have a profile on OMR Reviews yet and you're selling software in Germany, Austria and Switzerland go ahead and list your software on OMR Reviews.

00:42:10: we list quite a lot of software um In our research team anyway.

00:42:15: Um If we start new categories We will list the preselection vendors Anyway.

00:42:19: But if you are not there yet And You see okay I Don't Have A Profile Yet and go ahead enlisted.

00:42:24: And this listing is completely for free, so there's no money involved yet because we as a platform be profit from having good market overview in really the relevant players on our platform.

00:42:37: The other thing that it totally for free Because we also profit if there's a lot of reviews on our platform.

00:42:49: We will say this is something that you can do, If You Don't Pay a single penny to OMR Reviews Get Your Users And Ask Them To Write Sent In Your Profile There And Ask Can You Please Write A Review There?

00:43:02: What we monetize is basically the infrastructure behind this on making it easier for you as a vendor to collect reviews, right?

00:43:09: We then provide personalized links.

00:43:22: basically non-saying reviews on our platform, which separates us for example from big review platforms.

00:43:31: In generalists like Google where you can leave a review in one sentence say good product please buy this.

00:43:41: but our reviews are really in depth and they take approximately fifteen minutes to complete because we ask a lot of stuff.

00:43:48: We also asked for little bit in depth.

00:43:51: Basically, for this effort a reviewer takes they can profit from a little incentive.

00:43:59: For example in a voucher and that's the infrastructure we then provide if you want to basically enforces an amplifier and make it a lot easier for you in order to get reviews.

00:44:14: But, in the end its totally possible that your vendor does not pay a single dollar to OMR Reviews.

00:44:21: but still our category leader is number one most present tool in a listicle.

00:44:26: we write only by working with the platform organically.

00:44:32: this really important because common misconception and you get visibility if you pay.

00:44:39: And this is really not true, You pay for getting the infrastructure behind it... ...you pay to get a better chance to customize your profile even more.

00:44:54: put some white papers there for example Put tutorials so basically creating more content on your profile.

00:45:03: But in the end, the visibility benefits is a working game.

00:45:11: Another paying game you need to work in order to get your user reviews on OMR Reviews And then you gain traction.

00:45:21: You grow in software categories two better rankings.

00:45:26: Then let's quickly cover the incentivizing review part because I know that some people say You basically pay people to give positive reviews.

00:45:39: I think this is also a common misconception, what would you say?

00:45:45: We do not pay for good opinion but we pay for our opinions and really advise everyone.

00:45:55: ask all your user base Also the ones that are probably not so happy because this is market feedback and this helps you again being more trusted, getting more authority.

00:46:11: What I mean by that?

00:46:12: Because You also get a chance as software vendor to answer two reviews And say, okay if there's for example somebody who said I'm not happy with this in this part.

00:46:22: That is the perfect chance as a software vendor to go into conversation and say hey!

00:46:26: This really great feedback that helped us a lot improving our product.

00:46:29: we basically solved these problems.

00:46:31: now here are solutions.

00:46:33: you don't have problem anymore.

00:46:36: nothing more trustworthy than listening to user feedback answering it.

00:46:47: There's also a study that says it is much more trustworthy if your profile has the score of four point zero to four point five than a profile.

00:46:59: That has only five star reviews because this is the first thing that people are looking into.

00:47:04: an essay, If This Is Like A Only Five Star Profile Wait a minute, there's something that is not right.

00:47:11: And I actually don't want to look into this further because i'm really actively searching for those two and three star and four-star reviews in order To really get a balanced view on the tool?

00:47:24: This why when vendors ask us how should we do it?

00:47:30: what shall We say?

00:47:31: okay please get The full picture onboard Because this will Actually help you.

00:47:35: then every department of your company will benefit from the review.

00:47:40: Also product, customer marketing and customer success.

00:47:43: everyone knows then this is basically an action task for a company to get better.

00:47:49: if you get critical constructive reviews

00:47:55: Little bit counterintuitive take away for people listening you might actually also want to get people To leave a review that are like mediocre happy Like.

00:48:06: maybe just give three two five or three out of five stars Or four other five stars because in the end it will help You to have more genuine and authentic And trustworthy profile instead Of having fifty reviews, five out of Five Stars where A lot People with question is this really legit?

00:48:23: Correct.

00:48:24: Yes And I would say, yeah.

00:48:27: Helps always helps especially showing that you take this feedback seriously.

00:48:33: I think this is something where probably a lot of people have a hard time accepting this.

00:48:38: but it's good to hear from someone who is very deep in the trenches Speaking about being deeply in the trenches... ...I'm carrying with me since I was attending a very nice dinner actually hosted by OMR Reviews alongside the OMR conference in this May, in twenty-twenty six.

00:49:03: For everybody that does not know or is not aware of it, OMA Festival, Oma Conference and my festival's official name Again happening in twenty-twenty seven it would probably also happen to eighty eight and so on.

00:49:18: Yeah, but I'm pretty sure in Hamburg in May.

00:49:21: So also be sure to check this out is if you've never been there i think its a very cool experience But have been at this great dinner And people were talking about Vibe coding so building your own software Your own tools with Claude Code or Lovable etc... And then that was the sentiment obviously, because there were a lot of software vendors.

00:49:43: This might not be a good idea if you really rely on the software... ...because we have to care about maintenance and security etc.

00:49:50: And I totally get that.

00:49:52: but still i see some products getting bigger and bigger when you just need a fraction of the tools provided.

00:50:01: So these all-in one tools only two or three parts are needed.

00:50:06: And then I had this crazy idea, and i want to get your opinion on it.

00:50:10: Wouldn't there be a feasible solution for software vendors?

00:50:14: To provide parts of their software like modules so let's say for HubSpot for example the sales module with pipeline and offers in all that The signature solution maybe from Calendly or like these as schedulers, maybe their module so that someone can build their own software with Claude Code or Lovable but then integrate this critical parts into the software and not having to rebuild something That has already been done.

00:50:45: And then paying for that obviously some sort of licensing fee Or I don't know period.

00:50:50: what do you think about?

00:50:52: Maybe a little crazy idea?

00:50:54: I don't think it's a crazy idea at all.

00:50:56: And we already seeing signs in the market that exactly this is happening, sales force strategy two or three years ago was okay.

00:51:07: We are closed shop and do not let everyone in.

00:51:09: now they completely changed and said Okay!

00:51:24: those companies have figured out is maintenance, security compliance with all the market regulations and everything.

00:51:35: And this is super hard to build on your own that it's a biggest weak spot.

00:51:39: when you are now going out and say I'm vibe coding everything myself because then you also think about that those companies have done in the past to get where they are now.

00:51:54: And this is huge, I mean a total cost of ownership.

00:51:58: creating your own vibe-coded solution and basically scale with it and scale through these two international markets and so on and so forth... ...is big!

00:52:05: Now then you'll do all those licenses or certifications etc.

00:52:11: Therefore i think definitely be the future of software to create parts of this functionalities that are then in complying with all the laws, in compiling with all GDPR compliances and everything.

00:52:27: And basically offer those part of your software headless In order to then vibe code your own solution That fits a little bit better into your needs.

00:52:38: Then I created it because power of a vibe coding lies in customizability.

00:52:46: So because you really can't build exactly the OS, exactly this CRM that you need for your company or background but don't want to have all those nerve wrecking and hygiene factors that the big software vendors had thought about years ago already.

00:53:15: So I would say it's actually a really, really good idea and is exactly where software could be going?

00:53:23: Yeah maybe you should buy the idea for million dollars!

00:53:28: If you do not buy the other review platforms, no just kidding.

00:53:33: Ideas are cheap.

00:53:34: execution is everything.

00:53:36: we've learned that quite often.

00:53:38: but even if we don't think about like vibe coding and integrating these software pieces as modules from what you see in here Do also feel basically every software vendor now should have an mcp or a connector to ChatGPT and Claude because people don't just use ChatGPT, Claude et cetera for searching.

00:54:02: And for research as we have already also talked about but also four being their new go-to interface like that daily driver instead of the software ui.

00:54:13: i would say probably not for a majority of use cases, this is exactly what we are seeing.

00:54:24: I think my colleague Felix said in our State of SaaS keynote at the OMR festival earlier this year that the interface was really going into the chat off those tools and i think many people out there especially tech space Typical day in the life of a marketer on live oven developer or everything is your open Claude at the beginning of you're Day and then Claude already gives You basically A checklist are things to do under they?

00:54:59: what comes up?

00:55:00: And this is Basically where you organize yourself, and Where were you basically living now an outside.

00:55:07: This Is why for most Software vendors especially the ones that help you, for example creating stuff or analyzing stuff.

00:55:20: Having an MCP is extremely beneficial because basically open up your software solution to where people are actually spending time and when they get their work done.

00:55:33: but I think there's also exceptions from this rule.

00:55:40: I would have to think a little bit more about this.

00:55:43: What those exceptions might be?

00:55:50: That's for an update episode!

00:55:52: Yeah, but it makes sense to open up your software solution in places where people are actually working and getting their stuff done.

00:56:04: Now before we wrap things up a little bit I have A final thing in mind because when they were talking about so not necessarily you and me, but the market also are talking About agentic commerce Which is obviously something that was very hyped.

00:56:22: then ChatGPT discontinued some of The Things And Then focus more on the ads product etc.

00:56:28: So i would say it's at um, the relationship status is complicated with agentic commerce.

00:56:35: But still I think most of the conversation was around.

00:56:38: basically how can you connect your Shopify store to chatchapity so people can buy a perfume?

00:56:45: i don't know an new iPhone case or something like that from ChatGPT.

00:56:51: How do you see agentic commerce going into the btob software space?

00:56:56: will people Say to Claude.

00:56:58: Hey, I need.

00:57:00: so what do we need?

00:57:01: a new email marketing provider?

00:57:05: Ideally it has an mcp and be connected to Claude.

00:57:09: This is my budget.

00:57:10: yeah please go and let me know when i have to sign the offer.

00:57:15: Will this be in the future?

00:57:16: Yeah,

00:57:18: i mean definitely could be.

00:57:20: but What i am really convinced about Is In The End It Is People Having to sign the offer and it's people having to defend their decision in front of a board.

00:57:32: In front of leader, in-in-in front of their manager.

00:57:36: so in the end you still as a person?

00:57:41: You act especially also hinder German speaking markets risk averse and you want to say okay, You've done your homework here as well.

00:57:48: You didn't just go out And let the AI chatbot buy everything from you?

00:57:53: Then in the end Everything breaks!

00:57:56: So right who's accountable for this?

00:58:01: It was Claude it wasn't me

00:58:03: Exactly but your manager is going To Say Okay I'm not sure how i can now talk to Claude about This.

00:58:14: Let's talk about ownership and responsibility for a second here, my friend.

00:58:18: Correct!

00:58:19: And I think this accountability on ownership in the end is exactly where social proof comes in.

00:58:27: You want to show them you've done your homework... ...and check it as well.

00:58:32: This trust layer will still be totally important.

00:58:41: The only The only scenario, I think there's not important is rent.

00:58:45: Really everything is going agentic and nobody has to work anymore And nobody has too Has to defend their decisions in buying decisions any more.

00:58:53: but then we talk about a whole lot of future.

00:58:56: so this trust layer between the decision where you Show you've done your homework well You show?

00:59:02: You talked to people you've got that social proof you have seen you've written you read reviews about the software solution, this in between.

00:59:14: This will still be totally important.

00:59:16: so just trust layer wouldn't go away and that's exactly where we sit.

00:59:20: How are our solutions looks then?

00:59:21: In five to ten years maybe it could completely different but as long as this doesn't change I think there is a space for this infrastructure.

00:59:33: Then obviously only becomes relevant if Claude CEO has to argue with Claude CMO about what the hell he just bought for software and why He improved a five million budget for it.

00:59:45: But yeah, let's see what Claude cfo will then say to that.

00:59:51: So so final question than If you reflect little bit on what we talked about always.

00:59:56: my final question because sometimes It brings some interesting thoughts to the table.

01:00:01: What didn't we talk about that?

01:00:03: We should have talked about.

01:00:05: That's a really good question.

01:00:07: Surprise!

01:00:12: I would say, currently the holy grail of Geo and AI search is everything related measurement because basically influence of AI search Is super hard to attribute Because of course you can run models and count your citations, and count the mentions.

01:00:36: But right now there is no good solution for measuring your influence on pipeline or lead.

01:00:47: You always see an incremental uplift when doing post-purchase studies or if you have self-reported attribution, so basically asking your user in place and they say it's probably from AI Search but there is currently no good way to really make this influence be measured very well.

01:01:12: And not because also all those LLM providers are a black book yet and don't even want to show how much search has happened here.

01:01:24: The one that is figuring this part out, the measurement part.

01:01:27: I would really love to talk too because it's exactly where i think This right now stopping most teams That have not started with AI search yet Because they cannot see the influence of AI search click-based to say okay I know this is the channel that's important and has attributed.

01:02:00: Two hundred thirty thousand euro in revenue only in a first quarter, one of us figuring out.

01:02:07: how do you do this?

01:02:09: This was something i would love talk about.

01:02:12: perfect unscripted bridge to a final block of advertising for the muscle search.

01:02:19: conference october twenty second in berlin presented by Radyant and in partnership with OMR Reviews and Peec AI.

01:02:26: I'm not one hundred percent sure if someone has this holy grail figured out but when i am one hundred per cent sure is that there will be people that share how they think about.

01:02:37: what did it work they tried, come as close is possible to really proving this influence.

01:02:45: so i think it's very.

01:02:48: Very good lineup, I have read this very interesting post from Tim Soulo, who's CMO at Ahrefs.

01:02:53: he said basically and paraphrasing the best rule of thumb for putting together a conference his having a speaker line up that you would love too attend.

01:03:06: so And if you do this basically, then mostly the conference will turn out great.

01:03:11: I can say that everybody has come into the conference and sharing something on stage i'm genuinely excited about so would love to also see everybody of you listening or watching this there.

01:03:24: but yeah maven thanks so much for their awesome conversation.

01:03:28: anything we should put in the description anything left anything where he was saying it people want too.

01:03:35: Take the thoughts and like, the inspiration they got from this conversation.

01:03:40: How would I can continue with it?

01:03:44: What's left to share?

01:03:46: Yeah very good question!

01:03:49: If you want to connect... ...I've started a little bit more active on LinkedIn so reach out to me.

01:03:55: we get into conversations there.

01:03:57: I would love to.

01:03:58: Also, a thing that came through the AI search because before then it really didn't have any idea what you talk about on LinkedIn.

01:04:05: now i Have a nice topic where can connect with people like You and actually loved That?

01:04:11: The second Thing?

01:04:13: If your intrigued by this study we did together Where basically was over twenty thousand chats analyzed Over eight thousand prompts And no not so many prompts but Eight Thousand Answers Analyzed a lot of cool inside and value in there.

01:04:33: so check it out.

01:04:34: And then, I'm also going to be part of the master search conference end October and have to pleasure talk about how we shifted from traffic to citations as north star metric what I talked to today about.

01:04:52: But there's a whole keynote on everything, how we restructure our content production and how our prompt tracking is working... So if you want to come by here and have chat with me there?

01:05:06: I'd love too!

01:05:07: Nice If you spoil that much today.

01:05:09: You still have A little bit of time left To come up With new slides for the Keynote.

01:05:16: I would say a little

01:05:18: bit there so that people come to the conference and check it out.

01:05:23: So cool, so cool!

01:05:24: Marvin thanks for taking time.

01:05:27: all of your best greetings to Hamburg And yeah was very great talking you today on The Masters of Search podcast.

01:05:36: Thankyou so much for having me.

01:05:37: i hope There's some new insights for listeners.

01:05:41: A hundred percent im sure See You Bye

01:05:44: bye.